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  1. #91
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Whoa, what a long winded way of saying that Feelers are biased and Thinkers are not because they use Logic. And yet I have seen nothing in your arguments up until now that is substantiated by more than intuitively based deduction or empirical inference. The Logic in theory rests only in testing the intuitively based guesses made from the available evidence, and is in no way a defense for your arguments. I make that claim, because your logic is no doubt biased by your imperfect knowledge.

  2. #92
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Whoa, what a long winded way of saying that Feelers are biased and Thinkers are not because they use Logic. And yet I have seen nothing in your arguments up until now that is substantiated by more than intuitively based deduction or empirical inference. The Logic in theory rests only in testing the intuitively based guesses made from the available evidence, and is in no way a defense for your arguments. I make that claim, because your logic is no doubt biased by your imperfect knowledge.
    Here is an example of a Logic oriented statement--2 plus 2 is four. A simple formula.

    Value judgment--I value honesty.

    Essentially, everyone is biased, yet Ts tend to be less so because they tend to remove themselves from the picture for their decision-making.

    The fact that ITPs often argue (often logically consistently) in favor of radically individualistic notions and ETJs (also often logically consistently) in favor of radical collectivist positions shows us that none of us are insulated from the predispositions of our temperament.

    Very often we are unable to logically deduce our starting premises, and for this reason we often wind up with a logically impeccable argument leading to false conclusions.

    Zeno's paradoxes is a famous example of this.

    Zeno's paradoxes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A nutcase example to better illustrate the point is as follows:

    Any man who is 6,5 or taller is the tallest in town.
    Bill Clinton is 6,7
    Bill Clinton is the tallest in town.

    By the way...---I dont think that Ts are as logical as 2 plus 2 is 4..there ARE impediments for them to overcome on that path..in addition to establishing sound premises.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  3. #93
    Senior Member chippinchunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lazyhappy View Post
    i love infjs. i view they are the best "feeler" type.
    Not only is fe better then fi (emo) but thier 3rd function is Ti (the best function XD). My INFJ is one of the smartest people i know. and i believe that she is way wiser then alot of Ts i met. Brilliant revolutionists and people were infjs such as Martin Luther King Jr, Dr. Phil (i think he's one), my best friend and my therapist XD...
    and the J doesn't make them closed-minded at all, like alot of the other j's I met... and in fact, the INFJ combination of traits is one of the best combinations i've seen. INFJs are brilliant but kind and revolutionary!

    edit-
    and sorry if i'm putting down other types... i'm tired (that's a good enough excuse... i guess...) and sorry if i seemed freaky but... i'm in a weird mood for i just realised to the extent of which infj's are cool... Even though i got Einstien's type or whatever, Martin Luther cared more, sacrificed more and tried harder... i view that as more beautiful then some smart prodigy. (but yet that is my opinion)... and you are cool too brit o.o... and adam sandler (why not)... i'll throw you in there...

    (WOW... i just realised what this topic is about- "the Fi effect". pff... STFU BlueWing, god damn.)
    Cool, and thank you. (though I deny my J -damn-) I see that you have much praise for the INFJ. Amazing, I feel so special . And I agree with you 99.9% (that small other goes to your rash blurt).

    Yet i'm with ya all the way


  4. #94
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    The fact that ITPs often argue (often logically consistently) in favor of radically individualistic notions and ETJs (also often logically consistently) in favor of radical collectivist positions shows us that none of us are insulated from the predispositions of our temperament.
    Oh, I'm sure your logic is impeccable. But logic can produce many different answers to the same question, which leads me to believe that logic is only as good as the information it is based upon. How unbiased would you say your personal knowledge is? What is more dangerous, the illusion of objectivity, or speaking with known subjectivity?

    I love INTPs but they tend to forget that valuing logic is just as much a value judgment as any other value judgment is. To say their logic makes them significantly less biased than those who make subjective value judgments is laughable. Logic is a system of reasoning, a tool that can be used to measure the validity of arguments against what you already know. But since what you already know is subjective, the tool is no less subjective or unbiased than its source.

    Logic is fantastic at recognizing other's biases and subjectivity. But how well can you use it to measure your own? The answer is you can't unless you experiment or have someone else use their logic to point out the biases for you. Or at least that is what I have observed. Therefore logic is no shield, only a sword. People can only effectively use it to tear down others arguments, for when they try to use it defend their own, they are in no way cutting through their own bias.

  5. #95
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Oh, I'm sure your logic is impeccable. But logic can produce many different answers to the same question, which leads me to believe that logic is only as good as the information it is based upon. How unbiased would you say your personal knowledge is? What is more dangerous, the illusion of objectivity, or speaking with known subjectivity?

    I love INTPs but they tend to forget that valuing logic is just as much a value judgment as any other value judgment is. To say their logic makes them significantly less biased than those who make subjective value judgments is laughable. Logic is a system of reasoning, a tool that can be used to measure the validity of arguments against what you already know. But since what you already know is subjective, the tool is no less subjective or unbiased than its source.

    Logic is fantastic at recognizing other's biases and subjectivity. But how well can you use it to measure your own? The answer is you can't unless you experiment or have someone else use their logic to point out the biases for you. Or at least that is what I have observed. Therefore logic is no shield, only a sword. People can only effectively use it to tear down others arguments, for when they try to use it defend their own, they are in no way cutting through their own bias.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing;End of previous post
    OhBy the way...---I dont think that Ts are as logical as 2 plus 2 is 4..there ARE impediments for them to overcome on that path..in addition to establishing sound premises..
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  6. #96
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    BW don't you have anything better to do than sit around insulting the INFJs? Really *pffft* :rolli:
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #97
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    BW don't you have anything better to do than sit around insulting the INFJs? Really *pffft* :rolli:
    No type I appreciate more---with one exception in favor of the INFP, as is well known.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #98
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    then you should be nice to them!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #99
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I deem for this method to be an option, yet less reliable because it is subjective (not as easily seperated from our personal predispositions as Logic, and this process is more difficult to verify--as it cannot be laid out to the open for all to see, as easily as a mathematical equation. (T-logic)
    true, but Ni/Fe can make up different explanations for each member in a social setting. an INFJ will explain something to a T in a premise/deduction fashion, and will explain it in a value-judgment way to an F. (strong Ti is necessary for this versatility, i'll admit.)

    When an NT calls a feeling baseless, they usually mean that the Feeling either was not properly seperated from the person's biases, thus by reading their claim--we learn more about that person, rather than the subject---yet such a person insists that their claim be accepted as the truth. (Or so the NT perceives the last part).

    Thus, in this regard the NT is not saying that your feelings are not valid, or that you're wrong for having felt this way, but simply that your feeling-based notion does not evince the truth.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In regards to my second point--how Feelings are not as easily put out to the open as Thoughts and because of this the insight is difficult to verify. Hence, if we do not manage to verify the insight--we must accept it on trust. This is inconsistenct with the NT epistemic ethic of critical analysis.(Or only believing in things that we, on our own endeavor have ensured to be true.)

    *This leaves us with one serious problem to ponder*.

    The Feeling based insight may very well hold true, yet because the Feeler cannot get it out to the open the NT may not understand what the NF has in mind. As well as, the NT may entertain an intuition or a feeling that the Feeling based insight is sound, however, if he cannot ascertain of this being the case by virtue of his method of critical analysis, he will be forced to reject it. This does not mean that he dismisses it entirely. If on his own thinking he later discovers an argument for the point the Feeler made, he will embrace it. Not because of a change of heart, but because based on his own Thinking (not in a vernacular sense of the word, but in Jungian.)--he has come to believe that the insight was sound. I do that a lot.
    i totally agree with this. but i don't think it applies well to xNFJs (it works for Fi, or Si/Fe). Ni will question Fe's stances in order to gain objectivity. in fact, Ni is probably MORE objective than Ti, since Ti assumes the input it gets is true, and is limited to deductive logic.

    and with INFJs (well, for me at least), Ni and Ti create an NTish attitude. i like to think of myself as an NT-Rational with the extra ability to apply my ideas interpersonally. and i honestly find it much much easier to explain my ideas to NTs than to NFs. i can explain my thought process to both, but i have to leave certain "bad" things out to the NFs, whereas i can let go completely with NTs, since they're so much less likely to be offended. plus, i already have a crazy obsession with logic (my dad, an INTP, was my main role-model).

  10. #100
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    then you should be nice to them!
    I grin at this, mainly because I can imagine if I were in BW's shoes I would think "Huh? I am not being mean to them--merely only trying to glean information from and about them--by which I may better appreciate them!" to which my core response is, "where did this come from?"

    It plainly illustrates how the original intention of one's actions is often obscured because others interpret it from completely different mindsets.

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