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  1. #111
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Perhaps the most useful Fi-processing-tool I've found is the notion of "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it." What makes Fi formidable is that it can be this raw, unhindered wanting, often without rhyme or reason. One just wants, and having one's desires thwarted hurts. The problem is that we often want things that are just plain bad for us. The "wisdom," then, comes in the self-understanding about what things are good to want, and what things are bad to want.

    The wanting doesn't go away, but rather it is addressed by learning what you really want. And sometimes what you really want bears little or no resemblance to what you think you want. I spent decades chasing what I thought I wanted. Then I learned, in a bass-ackwards sort of way, that what I really wanted to do was ... dance.
    Uumlau, This has given me some food for thought. Really. Having just got my fingers burnt, perhaps for this reason. Maybe it was just a timely lesson, seeing as I'm one that doesn't usually lose her head over wanting.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #112
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I am on blackberry so can't quote quite right, but:

    For sty-a last thought. Our Fi judges others but our Te seems to act like a sliding forgiveness scale to decide what "judgment" should be externalized based upon our ability to understand and Ne-see why they may have done what they did. It is why we appear very forgiving of others. "Bob was very rude to me but I understand he thought he was being helpful in his honesty, so it's okay"

    Problematically we apply the highest Te standards to ourselves. We do not forgive ourselves for our own blunders when we hurt others. We then become highly self critical. We feel our core-our fi judgment is flawed?

    I dunno. This is very hard for me as given my status as an Ne monster-I can "see" every perspective, thus feel it is not my place to externalize my Fi judgments at all. Thus I ignore them.

    But to not use a function is to not develop it. I think an essential aspect of developing Fi for an enfp is that it has to be tested via externalization. If you do not use Fi you do not calibrate the Fi judgment via practice-thus when forced to use it, it implodes under pressure.


    William-this is where the infps are very valuable-by self reflection they learn to use Fi as a tool for emotional regulation and processing. It seems to become very complex. Where an enfp will often rapidly externalize the judgment with minimal processing under emotional stress-the emo dump or the bitchslap.

    While I much apprecaite understanding why enfps do this, and at least knowing there is a reason, it still doesn't make the behavior a socially acceptable one. In worst case scenario I think this tert Te funneled emo may result in physical violence. So it may seem like I am seeking an answer for me-but I really am following this line of thought on a much broader context. Can a skill set of learned Fi emo management techniques that infps employ via self reflection be taught to help fi maturation? Yeah I dunno...

    Uuummmlllaaauuu

    I know the mbti shorthand is annoying and reductionist. Everytime I use I fully recognize the smeared, convoluted nature of what I really mean and how it is intangled into a world of other things. But it is how I structure the thoughts.

    When I say childish fi-i mean its judgments are simplistic. People are almost all "good" unless they are "bad"for instance. This leade to some of the screwed up issues with forgiveness above and inability to self forgive. There is not enough Fi ruleset complexity to handle complicated emotional situations-so they result in a breakdown and remolding of sorts as all the emo overflows the circuitry. This is a hard way to learn Fi.

    For me Ne wants things-not Fi-no boundaries, no rules, endless exploration in spite of Fi's hesitation.

    Te feels like "hunger". Or playing a game, it is strength-it is a dark aspect at times.

    Fi is hidden away and protected.

    Part of the reason I seem so spastic here is that I allow Ne to run at full speed, which in turn lets that childlike Fi peek out as well. It almost pulls it out. So it is a safe playground of sorts.

    But yeah all of the above is thinking aloud half thought thoughts...

    (Also I recognize I say "we" and "enfps" but I really am looking towards those I see in the real world who face some of the same things I see in myself. We are actually pretty well employed, life is stable, things seem good-yet internally we feel not quiet...)

  3. #113
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    It is not that one who is "wise in Fi" somehow lacks "childish" emotions. Wouldn't that be boring! Rather, I believe one with "wise Fi" can take those emotions and find the wisdom within. Rather than being randomly driven by emotional whims, one with "wise Fi" processes those whims in such a way that transmogrifies capriciousness into prudence.
    I have already elaborated on my distaste for the word "childish" (not to mention whims) in other threads so won't expand on that here.

    Suffice it to say that "wise Fi" in my opinion digs deep enough to recognize the true source of origin, the seed of each strong emotion. Then acts or chooses to release. The seed thus is nurtured to grow or blows into the wind.

    "Wise Fi" enables choice that simultaneously honors yet transcends emotion.

    Edit: I don't dislike your quote above though uumlau. I just take issue with a few of the words, as is my wont.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #114
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I have already elaborated on my distaste for the word "childish" (not to mention whims) in other threads so won't expand on that here.

    Suffice it to say that "wise Fi" in my opinion digs deep enough to recognize the true source of origin, the seed of each strong emotion. Then acts or chooses to release. The seed thus is nurtured to grow or blows into the wind.

    "Wise Fi" enables choice that simultaneously honors yet transcends emotion.

    Edit: I don't dislike your quote above though uumlau. I just take issue with a few of the words, as is my wont.
    Yeah, the main thing I was trying to get at is that the feelings/motivations/Fi-stuff doesn't just automatically come out all mature, grown-up and sophisticated. It starts out as a tangled mess, same as everyone else.

    It is the behavior and the choices that one makes that is mature or not. The feelings are what they are, no more, no less.

    It is thus easy to mistake oneself for feeling childish or silly and having to contain childish feelings (as much as you dislike the word, that is often the perception), when really one is already processing them in an adult manner.

  5. #115
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Uuummmlllaaauuu

    I know the mbti shorthand is annoying and reductionist. Everytime I use I fully recognize the smeared, convoluted nature of what I really mean and how it is intangled into a world of other things. But it is how I structure the thoughts.

    When I say childish fi-i mean its judgments are simplistic. People are almost all "good" unless they are "bad"for instance. This leade to some of the screwed up issues with forgiveness above and inability to self forgive. There is not enough Fi ruleset complexity to handle complicated emotional situations-so they result in a breakdown and remolding of sorts as all the emo overflows the circuitry. This is a hard way to learn Fi.
    I wonder if this isn't a case of using Te instead of Fi. It is tempting to go from a notion of a "ruleset" to believing that one's Fi judgments should be reasonable, orderly, sophisticated. Remember that you're the one who pointed out that Fi often processes after the fact, when emo is done "overflowing the circuitry". Fi isn't the feeling, but gradually coming to an understanding of the feeling. The feeling is still "this is good, that is bad," but Fi comes along and adds color to the black and white, connects these lessons over here with those over there, that builds comprehension out of disparate building blocks. Your posts demonstrate a solid understanding in this regard - but the understanding doesn't make the black and white feelings go away, or make them "feel" more "nuanced."

    For me Ne wants things-not Fi-no boundaries, no rules, endless exploration in spite of Fi's hesitation.
    That makes sense, that Ne tends to drive you, as an Ne dom.

    Te feels like "hunger". Or playing a game, it is strength-it is a dark aspect at times.
    Now this is an interesting perception. It sounds like Fi, not Te, to me. Perhaps this is the "mood" Fi adopts upon deciding that Te is necessary.

    Fi is hidden away and protected.
    Your emotions are, yes, behind the obfuscations of the ever-exploring Ne. Fi is continually evaluating, though.

    Part of the reason I seem so spastic here is that I allow Ne to run at full speed, which in turn lets that childlike Fi peek out as well. It almost pulls it out. So it is a safe playground of sorts.
    Careful, we don't want to upset PB.

    I think this is a case of Ne and Fi working together, but operating in introverted mode, that Ne is "exploring" Fi, in a way.


    But yeah all of the above is thinking aloud half thought thoughts...

    (Also I recognize I say "we" and "enfps" but I really am looking towards those I see in the real world who face some of the same things I see in myself. We are actually pretty well employed, life is stable, things seem good-yet internally we feel not quiet...)
    I don't think intuitives are very "internally quiet": our minds keep on following implied connections.

  6. #116
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I have already elaborated on my distaste for the word "childish" (not to mention whims) in other threads so won't expand on that here.

    Suffice it to say that "wise Fi" in my opinion digs deep enough to recognize the true source of origin, the seed of each strong emotion. Then acts or chooses to release. The seed thus is nurtured to grow or blows into the wind.

    "Wise Fi" enables choice that simultaneously honors yet transcends emotion.

    I hope my term "childlike" is not taken incorrectly-I specifically use that wrt myself. The bolded above is kind of what I am getting at. The ability to insert pauses, then dig very deep contemplatively. PB when you say release would that be the same as to forgive? I guess I use forgiveness in this manner-to release strong emotions. But self forgiveness...

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I wonder if this isn't a case of using Te instead of Fi. It is tempting to go from a notion of a "ruleset" to believing that one's Fi judgments should be reasonable, orderly, sophisticated. Remember that you're the one who pointed out that Fi often processes after the fact, when emo is done "overflowing the circuitry". Fi isn't the feeling, but gradually coming to an understanding of the feeling. The feeling is still "this is good, that is bad," but Fi comes along and adds color to the black and white, connects these lessons over here with those over there, that builds comprehension out of disparate building blocks. Your posts demonstrate a solid understanding in this regard - but the understanding doesn't make the black and white feelings go away, or make them "feel" more "nuanced."
    Um, I may have mispoken-I think a well developed Fi can process the emotion while it is occurring to a certain extent. Some sort of parallel processing. However an undeveloped Fi just gets overwhelmed, all wires get cross connected and the whole thing melts down and then you see an emotional response rather than an Fi analyzed, weighed, decided response.

    The feeling-ew, that is so muddy-but I think the Fi response must combine aspects of the initial emotion (Id suggest also mirrored response), an analysis of how that compares with what you have seen historically, an analysis of how you responded in the past and what worked/didnt work, and a subsequent Fi judgment of how you feel about it now. (All of this is based on an FiSi ruleset of axioms/theroems and the like). All occurring very quickly to generate that "gut" feeling we call Fi-which can then be further analyzed on a more aware level. Then we can decide if we wish to take action on the Fi judgment or refrain.

    But note the perception functions-Si. I think for NFPs that means we really do form Fi "rulesets", and it can be hard to modify or change those sets. They really "feel" like rules I must abide by-even if not Te logical. It hurts if I choose not to as I feel reflected pain.


    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Now this is an interesting perception. It sounds like Fi, not Te, to me. Perhaps this is the "mood" Fi adopts upon deciding that Te is necessary.


    Your emotions are, yes, behind the obfuscations of the ever-exploring Ne. Fi is continually evaluating, though.
    So these two comments-this is where I step away from the other enfps I think. I can turn off the emotive response and choose not to feel anything. In not feeling I also choose not to use Fi-which uses feelings as a source of input (??) thus it certain aspects of Fi never get developed. Ew, even weirder, it is like I tell Fi that the Te answer will always be best, then choose not to feel emotion, then only use Fi if the Te answer triggers a very strong Fi gut response of WRONG based on one of the very simplistic childlike Fi rules. The Fi is like a very deep river that I maintain a distance from, but use as a compass in large decisions to gut check the logical decisions.

    Often Fi is silent. To the point I will start down a fairly cold NeTe path of analysis and then Fi catches up and goes-":you know that isnt very nice..." Then I am like "oh, uh, good point..." But only in thought-those weird Fi rules prevent actions that will hurt others-unless massively overwhelmed with emotion.

  7. #117
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcea rosea View Post
    Why not? I love harmony by default (like Lady X writes below).
    Because the ENFP's actions wouldn't be filtered in any way. That's assuming ENFPs can do no wrong. Which is not true.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    Perhaps the most useful Fi-processing-tool I've found is the notion of "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it." What makes Fi formidable is that it can be this raw, unhindered wanting, often without rhyme or reason. One just wants, and having one's desires thwarted hurts. The problem is that we often want things that are just plain bad for us. The "wisdom," then, comes in the self-understanding about what things are good to want, and what things are bad to want.

    The wanting doesn't go away, but rather it is addressed by learning what you really want. And sometimes what you really want bears little or no resemblance to what you think you want. I spent decades chasing what I thought I wanted. Then I learned, in a bass-ackwards sort of way, that what I really wanted to do was ... dance.
    Wise words. I specially agree with the first paragraph and think more FPs should learn to constantly realize that as a means to self-actualize and be happy.

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