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  1. #101
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Well I already stated my thoughts. I don't disagree with anything per se, you disagreed with me. I was just saying that ENFPs play the "misunderstood" or "other people are trying to control me" too readily sometimes.
    My dear friend Ne. and yes, I will fight my way past people who I think are controlling me. It is an issue I am learning to handle. This crops up much more loudly in the baby ENTPs though.

    The other issue is that I will then revert to Te control. Again, which is quite sensitive to others trying to do anything that "feels" controlling-which I can easily misinterpret.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    If I may hop in. I do not like being criticized. Especially when younger and especially if it is my idea. Typically I have attached a bit of emo to it.

    So yeah, I will knee jerk get pissed-but within seconds I quell that as I know to make an idea better I need more data and feedback.

    Oddly I hate criticism about me as well, but I SEEK it out as I seem to be on some sort of endless self improvement quest. Please send me all my trash so I can begin sorting through it.

    ENFPs are actually over represented in substance abuse and self help groups. Unlike some other types which thrive on denial we seem to show up hands extended going "GAAAAWWWDDD, I am so fuuucked up, can you help me figure this crap out?"
    Yeah but instead of being balanced about it, I think most of us either show extreme self-confidence or extreme self-doubt at any given time. I'd relate this to the self-centeredness I talked about before. It's either "I'm the king" (albeit a very prudent king, that doesn't go around telling everyone that at face value) or "I'm a loser". It's always very self-reflective.

  3. #103
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Sty is this self reflection a feature of Fi? Fi is a bit selfish.

    There is something funny about having Te under Fi. When Fi screws up, Te serves judgment. We judge ourselves internally via Te, then feel a need to develop a Te plan to resolve?


    Also self forgiveness...

  4. #104
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Sty is this self reflection a feature of Fi? Fi is a bit selfish.
    I think it is. And more specifically, poorly developed Fi perhaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    There is something funny about having Te under Fi. When Fi screws up, Te serves judgment. We judge ourselves internally via Fi, then feel a need to develop a Te plan to resolve?


    Also self forgiveness...
    Yeah I guess. Which can be a decision process trapped in a vaccuum. Isolated. Stems from self-centeredness (I'd use self-reflection to explain the exact same thing, but I just want to point out how defensive ENFPs can get with the right words thrown in ) and then is extroverted via the implacable Te.

    There is no chance for criticism here : Fi says "You don't get me!" and can be as subjective and as different from others as it pleases, and Te has little regard for any sort of resistance anyway and is entirely objective in wanting something accomplished "no matter what". The ends justify the means so it's self-excused just like Fi.

    Can you stop making every post about functions now?!

    (you did mean Fi [in bold] right?)

  5. #105
    Senior Member MafiaAngel180's Avatar
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    I got called paranoid two times this week by two different people. Maybe it's my N or maybe it's them. Heh. I dunno. It started a domino effect that made them think I was difficult. Also, I cut someone off when they were speaking. Oopsies. And they got severely angry and didn't want to speak to me. They said that I do it ALL the time. They said that I assume a lot of things too. And jump to conclusions. All of this may be personality, but it doesn't mean I shouldn't work on trying to balance myself out. All in all, I think I need to realize who the hell I'm talking to, and pay more attention about how I interact with them. Being an ENFP, it hurts when I have bad relationships.

  6. #106
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    I don't think I'm difficult to get along with. I'm actually quite easy to get along with. Other people have actually told me so. SO THERE?!?!??!?



    When I was a small kid all the moms of the 'problem kids' in the neighborhood would ask my mom for play dates. I think 1 kid was kind of a bully or at least a loud mouth because I remember not liking playing with him. I don't think anyone wanted to play with him. Another kid I vaguely remember had the opposite issue - he was extremely shy and averse to socializing to the point he would pick up his toys and run from other children at preschool. But, he didn't seem to mind me.

    So am I "difficult"? I don't think so.

    I don't necessarily get along with everyone and I'm not saying everyone I know likes me. However, I'm pretty low drama and only get to moderate drama when dealing with high-drama individuals or when I date...but that's kinda common, no?

    And considering all the idiots and troublemakers I know irl, I'll be damned if I get shuffled off with them or are even labelled as MORE difficult! WHATEVA! LOL.

    I don't have a problem finding words. I don't think I speak unclearly. Maybe because I just find so many of them.

    I know when I was younger it was more that I had a blockage and got really worked up internally so it much of the time, what was happening inside was never expressed. Or not expressed well.

    Now, I can still keep my cards close to my chest, but I feel easier and breezier inside and I feel comfortable speaking when I want to. Most of the time. When I am angry or upset, I feel I express myself more quickly and well, just better than most of my friends with a few exceptions. The friends who are exceptions I aspire more to be like. The rest of my friends are either very nice people and constantly "let things go" or else are more avoidant and likely to say 'this isn't worth it' and write everything off.

    For me, if it I'm ticked off or concerned or it regards a relationship I value or basically I care, it's always worth it.

    So no, I don't think I'm a difficult person and I don't feel it's difficult to articulate my thoughts.

    An ENFP male friend of mine, he can be difficult to get along with because he's a diva. And kinda a drama queen. And has a temper. But, he's generally entertaining and charming so's he's still quite popular.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  7. #107
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    that's a good point. controlling types will certainly think us difficult.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Actually we will think of you more as challange.
    But you are NT... SJ's certainly see us ENFP's as difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    It's a lot more difficult to love or tolerate someone who is all over the place because we are demanding constant adaptation form other people, and not everyone is capable of that, nevermind the fact we don't always see ourselves has having an obligation to compromise in the whole equation either.
    I agree on the bolded part. I think Ne in ENFP's need constant change and at the same time we demand constant change from the people around us or we deliver them constant change. But not all like constant change. For ENFP, constant change is a must and people who cannot stand constant change, cannot probably stand living with and ENFP...

    It's always someone else's fault.... but if the ENFP is one of the least controlling types, that means most others are always more controlling by default...so complaining about other people being too controlling doesn't mean squat. Unless the ENFP prefers to live as a hermit he/she will have to adapt a bit too. Or just not truly care about anyone as just be his/her naturally self-centered self.
    That is why ENFP-ISTP pair works. Neither is the controlling type and both can give eachother the room to breath in. It's just up to choosing the kind that suits your personality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I think if all us ENFPs had our way, we could do any and everything without anyone judging us and we'd always be loved and well liked by all. Is that good? I don't think so.
    Why not? I love harmony by default (like Lady X writes below).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    well i think that's not seeing it accurately at all. i think many enfps are naturally very loving, helpful and cooperative people and have a preference for harmony. i believe we only expect the same freedom we give to others and i also think we can be great team players but chose not to infringe on the rights of the individuals within the group. i personally do not feel much control in my life now and really only have from one person ever so it is not as if i go around believing everyone is trying to hold me down...i do not.
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    to answer the title question, yes, ENFPs can be difficult
    No, we aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I don't think I'm difficult to get along with. I'm actually quite easy to get along with. Other people have actually told me so. SO THERE?!?!??!?
    Me too, I think I'm very easy to get along with. I've been told so too. But some told I'm very difficult and very hard to understand, and too complicated. And too emotional. It only depends on the person I'm asking.

  8. #108
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I think it is. And more specifically, poorly developed Fi perhaps.
    I use the term "underdeveloped" as poorly developed might actually be something else. I could see poorly developed as having really weird values due to strange early life stress yielding someone like a terrorist. My Fi is underdeveloped-at that of a child.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Yeah I guess. Which can be a decision process trapped in a vaccuum. Isolated. Stems from self-centeredness (I'd use self-reflection to explain the exact same thing, but I just want to point out how defensive ENFPs can get with the right words thrown in ) and then is extroverted via the implacable Te.

    There is no chance for criticism here : Fi says "You don't get me!" and can be as subjective and as different from others as it pleases, and Te has little regard for any sort of resistance anyway and is entirely objective in wanting something accomplished "no matter what". The ends justify the means so it's self-excused just like Fi.

    Can you stop making every post about functions now?!

    (you did mean Fi [in bold] right?)
    Self-centered is self-reflection I suppose, but in an attempt at full disclosure, I am cool using the slightly less optimistic word. It is what gets applied to us externally by others, so we might as well understand how we are perceived externally.

    It looks self centered as we externalize our findings to the world, unlike our introverted INFP siblings who engage in self-relfection. We also tend to do so very quickly-thus the judgment is more primitive than an INFP. (They are very wise in matters of Fi)

    I actually meant Te-the bolded part, but I think it is situational. Fi can judge, then serve punishment via Te or we can just judge based upon Te. This second part gets us out of a lot of the neurotic behaviors-we judge ourselves in comparison to external objective metrics. "How does my work compare to bob's work?" rather than get trapped in the weird NeFi "My work must be horrible as nobody gave me affirmation today..."

    I do have to emphasize the importance of Si in combo with Te. I do have a blatant disregard for rules, however I very consciously choose not to abide by them-based upon past reflections-"what happened the last time I didnt follow this rule?" "How much money/inconvience/time did it cost?" "What happens when bob doesnt follow this rule?" Very quickly you learn that many rules need to be followed in spite of NeTe's innate disdain for authority. Not because the rule is judged by Fi as being of value-but because TeSi says that not following the rule is inefficient.

    (However Fi has a huge say. Rules may be discarded but people are to be treasured and not harmed.)

    I know I am a function junkie-but I guess I understand this stuff via the pattern from the underlying functions-then I can identify a common solution that fits most enfps. I speak in funky letters but the corrective plan is in action items.

  9. #109
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    It looks self centered as we externalize our findings to the world, unlike our introverted INFP siblings who engage in self-relfection. We also tend to do so very quickly-thus the judgment is more primitive than an INFP. (They are very wise in matters of Fi)
    You give us too much credit The worst-case scenario for an Fi-dom is when he totally shuts out all external inputs to the judgment and relies solely on his values. That is as selfish as you can get. No amount of rational/logical arguments would work and neither will appealing to do it for the "greater good" of society/mankind. It can be truly intimidating to be faced with a person who has made up his mind and will not be budged by any outside influences.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  10. #110
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I use the term "underdeveloped" as poorly developed might actually be something else. I could see poorly developed as having really weird values due to strange early life stress yielding someone like a terrorist. My Fi is underdeveloped-at that of a child.
    I believe I understand what you mean by this, but I think it is off in a couple of ways, and the usual MBTI shorthand is getting in the way of understanding.

    Thought number one: I've often noted that for myself, the problem was not really that I had a weak or underdeveloped Fi, but rather that I did not like what Fi had to say, so to speak.

    Thought number two: Fi "feels childish" to most people, I've observed, even many Fi doms. It's so very internalized and subjective, it's ourselves at our most raw, it's all the ways in which we don't measure up to what we want to be ... of course it feels "childish." My point being, perhaps it actually isn't childish, but only feels that way.



    Self-centered is self-reflection I suppose, but in an attempt at full disclosure, I am cool using the slightly less optimistic word. It is what gets applied to us externally by others, so we might as well understand how we are perceived externally.

    It looks self centered as we externalize our findings to the world, unlike our introverted INFP siblings who engage in self-relfection. We also tend to do so very quickly-thus the judgment is more primitive than an INFP. (They are very wise in matters of Fi)
    INFPs? They are not immune to Fi foolishness. The ones that do get past the foolishness, however, have a rich source of wisdom, indeed ... in part because the lessons are rather difficult.


    ...


    Fi is difficult to deal with because it can be difficult to separate the subjective subject matter from the functional processing itself. It is not that one who is "wise in Fi" somehow lacks "childish" emotions. Wouldn't that be boring! Rather, I believe one with "wise Fi" can take those emotions and find the wisdom within. Rather than being randomly driven by emotional whims, one with "wise Fi" processes those whims in such a way that transmogrifies capriciousness into prudence.

    There are some threads about Ni that have been popping up of late, and the issue is similar. Ni offers up all sorts of nonsensical associations, many of which border on sheer paranoia. One becomes "wise in Ni" by understanding how the "nonsensical associations" really work, turning weird randomness into predictive insight.

    ...

    Perhaps the most useful Fi-processing-tool I've found is the notion of "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it." What makes Fi formidable is that it can be this raw, unhindered wanting, often without rhyme or reason. One just wants, and having one's desires thwarted hurts. The problem is that we often want things that are just plain bad for us. The "wisdom," then, comes in the self-understanding about what things are good to want, and what things are bad to want.

    The wanting doesn't go away, but rather it is addressed by learning what you really want. And sometimes what you really want bears little or no resemblance to what you think you want. I spent decades chasing what I thought I wanted. Then I learned, in a bass-ackwards sort of way, that what I really wanted to do was ... dance.

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