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  1. #21
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    Ni-Ti is real, especially bad for e5s. lack of Fe extroversion creates this external pressure pushing down on you. Fe builds up your extroverted skill, so you develop more control, composure, and confidence in your assertion. you figure out how to make it work for you. without it, you're fucked.
    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    esoteric wench, are you a 7w8 or an 8w7? you remind me of a friend of mine. she's an sx/so--you both have the same kind of pushiness (and don't take that as an insult because it's not). we always joke about which one of us is going to MAKE the other one listen to us. no me, me, me! (bc i'm the same way at heart)
    Wow! This is an awesome post. (Even the parts I don't yet fully understand.)

    Oh the state i am in, you have seduced me into finally reading up on the Enneagram which is something really given my somewhat slothful nature. So I'll let you know if I'm 7w8 or an 8w7 shortly. And, I'll better understand some of the finer points in what you posted here. Back soon.
    Last edited by Esoteric Wench; 05-08-2010 at 04:06 PM.

  2. #22
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    I am an 7w8. <-- In response to The State I am In's question. (I was also very, very strong in 3.)

  3. #23
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    female infjs often seem less socially oblivious and more tactful than males.

    sx infj males are somewhat brooding.

    Ni-Ti is real, especially bad for e5s. lack of Fe extroversion creates this external pressure pushing down on you. Fe builds up your extroverted skill, so you develop more control, composure, and confidence in your assertion. you figure out how to make it work for you. without it, you're fucked.

    male discourse is more damaging to ifj males than ifp males. there's a sense of grounded, inner strength in Fi males that ifj aux Fe males don't have. efj males are more confident in their assertions, they have all their interaction styles and demographics worked out, so they feel secure in their ability to meet the right tone at the right moment and perform accordingly. ifj males don't really have that. plus they have more of an inward grounding than efj males, and especially in Ni-Ti mode, the world can look pretty fucking ugly. the way males relate to each other, especially in S groups, still mostly disgusts me. i don't have the callous insulation that ifp males can develop, protecting their own core of Fi. i am either open and extroverted (which means flexible, really LISTENING to everything around me and imagining what is being said, what people really mean, what preconceptions they really have, etc (which can be hugely disappointing, disillusioning, dehumanizing, and depressing for infj ideals--bc you naturally see so many negative perspectives and you can't keep them all out, they get to be overhwelming), and not judge them. constantly revising your ideals to fit what is around you, while wanting the world to be better than it is (and spending so much time imagining what that could be).

    (ifp males feel a threat of alienation in a different way than infjs, but it's rarely as counterposed to male discourse. they are more focused on the possibiltiies for Fi independence and threats from them, whereas we are focused, emotionally, on what is around us, the mood and tenor and ethical value of it for the group)

    infj males have a difficult path (to create a healthy system for themselves), but the ones who find their way can become great leaders. what are seen as weaknesses can become strengths. i think infj males also put more pressure on themselves to go out into the world and make something of themselves, the kind of masculine yang ambitious vs yin, a kind of assertion breadwinner mentality, which causes conflict when it doesn't match their skills and what makes them happy, feel fulfilled, meaningfully engaged, etc. we as a society probably need more infj stay-at-home dads.
    State, this is really, really interesting. I wish more male INFJs (or at least people who know male INFJs in real life) would join in more!

  4. #24
    Senior Member Ratsimoan's Avatar
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    I believe my friend is an unhealthy infj. i don't pay enough attention to infj's behavior like esoteric wench . but i can tell a healthy infj from unhealthy infj. I lose hope in romance, when i see an unhealthy infj. i just wish the world could just accept you guys as you are. there's nothing unmasculine about you guys, you guys are beautiful. in my opinion a guy who shows his feeling is masculine. it melts my heart when you guys express your feelings.
    [SIGPIC] [/SIGPIC]

    Death must be so beautiful. To lie in the soft brown earth, with the grasses waving above one's head, and listen to silence. To have no yesterday, and no to-morrow. To forget time, to forgive life, to be at peace."
    — Sylvia Plath (The Bell Jar)

    "Remember, remember, this is now, and now, and now. Live it, feel it, cling to it. I want to become acutely aware of all I’ve taken for granted."
    — Sylvia Plath

  5. #25
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    my SO is a male infj . . . and i just wanted to let "the state i am in" know that his dream in life is pretty much to be a stay at home dad. ha ha! i'm serious though. my boyfriend has gone through some hard hard hard times - drug addiction & now he is battling alcoholism. i am still in the process of getting to know his depths but i really truly think that these substances were used as a coping mechanism in dealing with his sensitivity. it breaks my heart to think that if he were born in a different time & place he probably would have never needed substances to help him to deal with being "different". damn americans & our valueless values.

  6. #26
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratsimoan View Post
    I believe my friend is an unhealthy infj. i don't pay enough attention to infj's behavior like esoteric wench . but i can tell a healthy infj from unhealthy infj. I lose hope in romance, when i see an unhealthy infj. i just wish the world could just accept you guys as you are. there's nothing unmasculine about you guys, you guys are beautiful. in my opinion a guy who shows his feeling is masculine. it melts my heart when you guys express your feelings.
    Hear, hear Ratsimoan. When the INFJ males I know express their Fe. Oh. My. Goodness. I turn into a bunt-cake-shaped pile of jello. This is how more men should be. And our culture... with its one-dimensional-ESTJ-lauding male stereotypes... can go screw itself.

    The feeling of attraction / respect / connection I have for such men can be so strong that sometimes my normal charming and lively self becomes befuddled and socially off my game in their presence. The experience is akin to that of my dog who when she gets too excited by the intensity of our play will hide under the bed chewing on an old bone because she just can't take the intensity of her feelings.

    And like Ratsimoan, my heart hurts for the INFJ men I've known who've had a rough time sorting out how to be true to who they are and yet survive in a culture that teaches them to be as un-INFJ as possible. Even the ones that need a good kick in the *ss are still (in their own way) some of the coolest guys I've ever met.

    <Sigh.>

  7. #27
    Junior Member The Curator's Avatar
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    It is heart warming seeing the above comments towards INFJ males. It puts a smile on my face, it really does, I for one thank you. I know it doesn't relate to the thread topic but thank you, truly, you put a smile on this INFJ's face.
    "It is an easy thing to find a man who often, opens his mouth but rarely says anything. It is a difficult thing to find a man who rarely speaks but says volumes" - Unknown Author

    "A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave."
    - Mohandas Gandhi

    "Human Salvation lies in the hands of the creatively Maladjusted" - Martin Luther King Jr.

  8. #28
    Senior Member quietmusician's Avatar
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    This thread has been interesting to read. And I'm glad that we INFJ males have fans. I don't know what to add to this topic, but from what I've read everything has been pretty much spot on. The challenges we face can be soul crushing at times, but enlightening as well. I really do attempt to fit into an unhealthy ESTP suit sometimes. I think I can tell my Fe isn't really strong. Certain expected social behaviors tend to go over my head. But all around I'm still trying to find my place as well as some peace of mind.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Ratsimoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Hear, hear Ratsimoan. When the INFJ males I know express their Fe. Oh. My. Goodness. I turn into a bunt-cake-shaped pile of jello. This is how more men should be. And our culture... with its one-dimensional-ESTJ-lauding male stereotypes... can go screw itself.

    The feeling of attraction / respect / connection I have for such men can be so strong that sometimes my normal charming and lively self becomes befuddled and socially off my game in their presence. The experience is akin to that of my dog who when she gets too excited by the intensity of our play will hide under the bed chewing on an old bone because she just can't take the intensity of her feelings.

    And like Ratsimoan, my heart hurts for the INFJ men I've known who've had a rough time sorting out how to be true to who they are and yet survive in a culture that teaches them to be as un-INFJ as possible. Even the ones that need a good kick in the *ss are still (in their own way) some of the coolest guys I've ever met.

    <Sigh.>
    I'm glad you feel the same. I truly believe they are beautiful men. They literally can change things like Nelson Mandela, who's listed as an infj. There's nothing worst then to see a person be something they are not- infj- shadow self-estp. I don't know what it is, but infj men makes me want to love and take care of them. There's a scene in Doctor Zhivago ( 2002 version), where Lara is bathing Yuri, that's what i want to do the infj. I guess they bring an over nurturing side out of me.
    [SIGPIC] [/SIGPIC]

    Death must be so beautiful. To lie in the soft brown earth, with the grasses waving above one's head, and listen to silence. To have no yesterday, and no to-morrow. To forget time, to forgive life, to be at peace."
    — Sylvia Plath (The Bell Jar)

    "Remember, remember, this is now, and now, and now. Live it, feel it, cling to it. I want to become acutely aware of all I’ve taken for granted."
    — Sylvia Plath

  10. #30
    Senior Member Ratsimoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Curator View Post
    It is heart warming seeing the above comments towards INFJ males. It puts a smile on my face, it really does, I for one thank you. I know it doesn't relate to the thread topic but thank you, truly, you put a smile on this INFJ's face.

    I love you guys . You're just misunderstood. I must admit that sometimes, my infj's friend gets on my nerve, nevertheless, he's still a beautiful person with a lot a lot of potential. I really really would like to date a healthy infj.
    [SIGPIC] [/SIGPIC]

    Death must be so beautiful. To lie in the soft brown earth, with the grasses waving above one's head, and listen to silence. To have no yesterday, and no to-morrow. To forget time, to forgive life, to be at peace."
    — Sylvia Plath (The Bell Jar)

    "Remember, remember, this is now, and now, and now. Live it, feel it, cling to it. I want to become acutely aware of all I’ve taken for granted."
    — Sylvia Plath

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