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  1. #11
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    That's what I mean, that's exactly what I do. Well, I don't forgive as much as I just let it go. But, is that healthy? To always rationalize feelings away? It could be because I am around Fe-types a lot and they just pour out emotions and I am just so reserved. Are they doing it right or am I doing it right or are the strong T types doing it right?
    You know Rebe, I am very mixed on this one.

    If it is rationalization followed by REAL forgiveness-then I think it may okay if it is a one time thing, or some small slight that is unimportant.

    If it isnt forgiveness, but actually just bottling it up-well that sounds not good. I dont think enfps are as good at being able to bottle up bad emo as maybe infps can. I think we emo-plode if we try and bottle up, so are kinda stuck either saying something or forgiving.

    For myself rationalization works like a charm for anger-for hurt-oh, not such much. For growth, I need to understand how to better process emotional pain rather than just repress it. It is a lesson I am working through and I much enjoy listening to the INFPs here as they are very good understanding this.

    How do your Fe users emo-vent? It isnt something I have seen but maybe I just dont have enough Fe types to watch?

  2. #12
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    Fe-users (this drives me crazy and scares me, but I do love them)(or at least the ones I know) believe that every emotion they have are absolutely legitimate and Right and even sometimes logical/reasonable.

    Someone does something, Fe-user is upset. Fe-user vents about her feelings.
    Me: But, you shouldn't feel that way, they didn't mean it that way, there is no reason to feel that way, etc.
    Fe-user: BUT I DO. THAT IS HOW I FEEL.
    Me: Wha......uhm...

    Whereas.
    Someone does something. I feel quite awful because I don't know how to process it accurately, in terms of my current feelings, of my future feelings, whether I should base on strictly facts but uhm, what are facts?...etc.

    Me toward whoever hurt my feelings: YOU ARE AN AWFUL PERSON.

    Two days later, after I have thought about this and did my introspection and logic thing: So, I didn't mean what I said. I got over it. I am not upset anymore. (translation: I don't feel good about exposing myself like that and I may still be a little upset, not because you did something wrong, but my feelings are hurt and that is okay, but I cannot let you know this, so I must take back what I previously expressed in order to re-gain control and lock myself back behind my wall of protection. See ya.)

    Whereas a Fe-user would still find their feelings legitimate and see them as 'facts of life' and don't feel the need to rationalize it away. "It is okay for me to feel this way. Maybe there is no 'logical' reason for me to feel hurt, but I did feel it, so I have a right to be hurt."

    Of course, I am over-simplifying and over-generalizing as I am basing it on two Fe-friends of mine, but bare with me. This is very interesting to me and I'd like to know how to handle future situations better. Maybe I am over-thinking, maybe my reaction is just the middle way between Fe and T users and that is totally fine.

    Oh! You know, duh, this is prob. just the difference between Fi and Fe. When Fi-s are hurt and angry, they get all 'universal principles' and 'idealistic' whereas Fe are more grounded in their emotional expressions so it never goes as far as 'your entire character is awful because of this one thing you did' but more like 'that specific situation hurt me' so their emotions are naturally proportional.

  3. #13
    One day and the next Rainne's Avatar
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    Boredom/apathy is one of the worst feelings.
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  4. #14
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    I try to consider the feeling and see what is making me feel that way. Sometimes if it is intense/overwhelming I need to talk to somebody else who can help me figure it out.

    There is a good chance I am reacting strongly because somebody is being unreasonable and it has nothing to do with me. But I also look for what I call "disproportionate emotional reaction" (in myself and in others) because that is usually a sign that there's something else going on beside the apparent point of conflict. Obviously it's more difficult with other people, but with myself, once I figure out what is causing it then I can try to work on that. Like maybe insecurities are causing me to get defensive, and NOT the thing that the other person said that touched upon that insecurity. Or maybe I'm just touchy because of family circumstances, or because I haven't eaten or gotten enough sleep, or something like that.


    It is a little bit cliche maybe, but I think it's actually a really good way to look at this sort of thing.
    God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
    That is what I try to learn to discern.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  5. #15
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    Fe-users (this drives me crazy and scares me, but I do love them)(or at least the ones I know) believe that every emotion they have are absolutely legitimate and Right and even sometimes logical/reasonable.

    Someone does something, Fe-user is upset. Fe-user vents about her feelings.
    Me: But, you shouldn't feel that way, they didn't mean it that way, there is no reason to feel that way, etc.
    Fe-user: BUT I DO. THAT IS HOW I FEEL.
    Me: Wha......uhm...

    Whereas.
    Someone does something. I feel quite awful because I don't know how to process it accurately, in terms of my current feelings, of my future feelings, whether I should base on strictly facts but uhm, what are facts?...etc.

    Me toward whoever hurt my feelings: YOU ARE AN AWFUL PERSON.

    Two days later, after I have thought about this and did my introspection and logic thing: So, I didn't mean what I said. I got over it. I am not upset anymore. (translation: I don't feel good about exposing myself like that and I may still be a little upset, not because you did something wrong, but my feelings are hurt and that is okay, but I cannot let you know this, so I must take back what I previously expressed in order to re-gain control and lock myself back behind my wall of protection. See ya.)

    Whereas a Fe-user would still find their feelings legitimate and see them as 'facts of life' and don't feel the need to rationalize it away. "It is okay for me to feel this way. Maybe there is no 'logical' reason for me to feel hurt, but I did feel it, so I have a right to be hurt."

    Of course, I am over-simplifying and over-generalizing as I am basing it on two Fe-friends of mine, but bare with me. This is very interesting to me and I'd like to know how to handle future situations better. Maybe I am over-thinking, maybe my reaction is just the middle way between Fe and T users and that is totally fine.

    Oh! You know, duh, this is prob. just the difference between Fi and Fe. When Fi-s are hurt and angry, they get all 'universal principles' and 'idealistic' whereas Fe are more grounded in their emotional expressions so it never goes as far as 'your entire character is awful because of this one thing you did' but more like 'that specific situation hurt me' so their emotions are naturally proportional.
    Wow, this is certainly interesting. For me, "I know you didn't mean it but I felt hurt anyway (because of how you said it, how I was already feeling, external circumstances, a misunderstanding, etc.)" seems perfectly acceptable, but "You are an awful person" seems a really cruel thing to say and I would be extremely hurt if someone said that to me. (My thought process would be -- I did something wrong and unintentionally hurt your feelings and suddenly you are rejecting me as a person. It makes me feel like that one thing I did is more important than our whole friendship. Even if you take back what you say later, it still hurts, because at that moment when you said it, you really meant it that you thought I was a horrible person.)

    I don't know, but I don't think 'locking yourself' behind your walls is really healthy. If you really care for them, and they for you, they have the right to know what they did that made you feel bad. Sometimes people have no idea that they are treading on sensitive grounds (especially with Fi), so I think it's better to let them know when you're feeling uncomfortable. Human interactions are tricky, and I think people normally try not to make other people feel bad intentionally (unless they are really horrible people), so a little guide on what to do or what not to do should be helpful and I believe people will try NOT to hurt your feelings in a similar manner in the future once they know how it hurt you.

    (I know the confrontation bit when you actually talk to them about why you got hurt might be difficult, but I think it pays off in the long run)

  6. #16
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    ^ completely agree with you 21%.

    it is not healthy to do character assassination based on you being hurt in a situation. that sort of black and white thinking will cause you and people around you a lot of trouble. i think it's wise not to read between the lines too much and first go to yourself.

    also, it is not healthy taking all the blame, nor is it wise to always assume that people have good intentions...

    situations where you get hurt are usually misunderstandings (or just a clash of feelings, for whatever reason), or are caused by differences in priorities.

    misunderstandings/ bad vibes can be talked through, forgiven and forgotten, but if i notice a pattern of negativity, i will get into the issue deeper and probably come to the conclusion that the conflicts are caused by bigger differences in priorities.

    and even if using Thinking is unfamiliar to you in conflict situations, it is important...
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  7. #17
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    Me? I completely bury or become absolutely determined to work through negative feelings, often believing that I shouldn't be having them, that I should be strong enough to deal with them, or that I should be over whatever it is that caused them.

    I often have trouble trusting others with my negative feelings, as though they'd just be a burden on other people and that I should deal with them myself. As the person who's seen as "the strong one", I feel like I've gotten the message that others drop the ball when they have to be strong for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    For me, "I know you didn't mean it but I felt hurt anyway (because of how you said it, how I was already feeling, external circumstances, a misunderstanding, etc.)" seems perfectly acceptable, but "You are an awful person" seems a really cruel thing to say and I would be extremely hurt if someone said that to me.
    If I do something that hurts someone, I can attempt to explain my perspective. And I can just choose not to do it again. (Or I can choose not to care about how they feel and do it again anyway.) I'm really not responsible for another's feelings, but I can choose to love and support them while still looking out for #1.

    If someone tells me that I'm an awful person, then I'm pretty much screwed in their eyes. At that point, the message is that they do believe that their feelings are my fault. And it'd take a lot for me to even be able to talk to them again.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvonne View Post
    ^ completely agree with you 21%.

    it is not healthy to do character assassination based on you being hurt in a situation. that sort of black and white thinking will cause you and people around you a lot of trouble. i think it's wise not to read between the lines too much and first go to yourself.

    also, it is not healthy taking all the blame, nor is it wise to always assume that people have good intentions...

    situations where you get hurt are usually misunderstandings (or just a clash of feelings, for whatever reason), or are caused by differences in priorities.

    misunderstandings/ bad vibes can be talked through, forgiven and forgotten, but if i notice a pattern of negativity, i will get into the issue deeper and probably come to the conclusion that the conflicts are caused by bigger differences in priorities.

    and even if using Thinking is unfamiliar to you in conflict situations, it is important...
    Agree that invoking T in conflict situations is helpful. Or in situations where you get lost in the Ne Si loop that Udog posted about some time ago.

    Though it's not healthy to take all the blame, I've found that telling someone you didn't mean to hurt their feelings but if you did, you're sorry, helps to open up communication. Looking for blame in and of itself isn't helpful. It usually doesn't matter whose fault it is; what's important is to talk about what's causing the conflict (how each of you feels).

    I forgive and forget conflicts that may arise between friends. Because I have just a few close friends, conflicts (though few) are easier to work out because once someone is my friend, I'm like the North Star. Constant, reliable, always there for them. I'll go to great lengths to resolve an issue. I can't become cold and distant with a true friend, to hurt them that much.

    Getting back to using T. It helps to look at something logically or dispassionately when you use Fi. It's very difficult for me to extricate myself from my feelings. Living there (with intense feelings) is not easy at times and it can skew a situation. I've learned that as much as I trust my feelings and intuition, they can be faulty.

  9. #19
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    ^ an excellent post Lauren, and i identify with every word

    i've also found that with T types you can be quite blunt. if you manage to explain your emotions with T logic, you will almost always get a positive response.
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  10. #20
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    Someone does something. I feel quite awful because I don't know how to process it accurately, in terms of my current feelings, of my future feelings, whether I should base on strictly facts but uhm, what are facts?...etc.

    Me toward whoever hurt my feelings: YOU ARE AN AWFUL PERSON.

    Two days later, after I have thought about this and did my introspection and logic thing: So, I didn't mean what I said. I got over it. I am not upset anymore. (translation: I don't feel good about exposing myself like that and I may still be a little upset, not because you did something wrong, but my feelings are hurt and that is okay, but I cannot let you know this, so I must take back what I previously expressed in order to re-gain control and lock myself back behind my wall of protection. See ya.)

    Whereas a Fe-user would still find their feelings legitimate and see them as 'facts of life' and don't feel the need to rationalize it away. "It is okay for me to feel this way. Maybe there is no 'logical' reason for me to feel hurt, but I did feel it, so I have a right to be hurt."

    Of course, I am over-simplifying and over-generalizing as I am basing it on two Fe-friends of mine, but bare with me. This is very interesting to me and I'd like to know how to handle future situations better. Maybe I am over-thinking, maybe my reaction is just the middle way between Fe and T users and that is totally fine.

    Oh! You know, duh, this is prob. just the difference between Fi and Fe. When Fi-s are hurt and angry, they get all 'universal principles' and 'idealistic' whereas Fe are more grounded in their emotional expressions so it never goes as far as 'your entire character is awful because of this one thing you did' but more like 'that specific situation hurt me' so their emotions are naturally proportional.
    I kinda get what you are saying about not understanding how to process-but instead typically, I seem to have a mental block against permenant labels like "You are...." unless you have pushed me to the point of hatred. Normally I will say "You are doing this..." or "you are acting like..." or maybe even "why are you acting like an ass?"

    (Ah, damn, I have to take that back-if I am way emo, and way pushed into a corner I will lash out to get you out of my space. The words can be very mean then, but this happens very rarely. Never back an ENFP into a corner.)

    What do INFPs expect to be the results of emotional expression? What do you expect the other person to do once you have expressed your emotions? Rebe it sounds like you are just seeking processing space... but others? Is it simply a statement of values, so that mutual respect can be established?

    Also-if you cannot trust others, how do you determine who to trust emotionally? I typically block everyone honestly and let nobody close via engaging with Te, not Fi. But if I did try and engage more openly with Fi, can you describe how you do so in a graduated fashion-I guess a slower unveiling? Are there degrees of trust-some people are trusted more than others perhaps? Both may be Fi connections but on different levels?

    Also-blame? To me it seems like I have to get it out of the way, so that all negativity goes away. The easiest way is just to accept it, and relieve the other person of that blame, then dismiss it. Then we can talk or just move on, as everything is forgiven. If you dont accept blame, how do you work through the issue-do you go item by item in discussion, not to blame, but to understand? I really have no idea.

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