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  1. #11
    Senior Member vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    I think both Ni and the inferior Se are involved here. With such weak Se, INFJs often get so caught up in their own thoughts that they miss what is going on around them - such as the fact that the person standing right next to them isn't happy.
    INFJs are the most empathic type of all. So an INFJ would be the absolute last person or type NOT to notice the unhappiness of someone around him/her.
    Other than that I do relate to what you said.

    I think a better example might be :
    INFJs are going to miss the literal text of what someone is saying to them, rather than the general vibe they get from that person.

  2. #12
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    L'enfer, c'est les autres (Hell is other people)

    I'm personally convinced that a lot of other people don't bother to hear me out because I don't speak in catch phrases. I think most people are shallow.
    This hasn't kept me from being succesful in the important aspects of my life. I think most INFJs are too good for this world and that I say this because it's a fact rather than a defense mechanism.

    I also think we've failed as a race in the past and we fail as a race now and that what we consider as "normal" is inevitably the cause of that. So that's also why I shun too much conformity.
    My opinion is similar.

    INFJs are quite different from the normal denominator and as introverts would have to work harder than an extrovert (I mean as in how much work it FEELS like) who gets along more naturally and is better at seeing things as they are. whereas INFJs see things as they 'could be.'

    Genius and insanity are the same. Having either means you can see things other people can't. The trick is learning how to communicate it. In my case, I have poor spoken language skills but good written language skills. For normal folks, it seems 2 b the oposit. As such, I get shunned for being 'stupid.'

    I also naturally avoid problems I don't know how to fix, or are afraid of fixing (because they involve causing negative emotion from someone else that doesn't understand why I'm doing/saying whatever it is I need to do or say.)

    INTJs have it easier, they can just not give a shit a lot more naturally than INFJs can

    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    INFJs are the most empathic type of all. So an INFJ would be the absolute last person or type NOT to notice the unhappiness of someone around him/her.
    Other than that I do relate to what you said.

    I think a better example might be :
    INFJs are going to miss the literal text of what someone is saying to them, rather than the general vibe they get from that person.
    Se is a function that is completely empirical. It doesn't mean they are good at noticing people's reactions. Heck, they probably notice it better, but don't realize someone is reacting a certain way. The INFJ sees how the person is reacting before they think of what the person is doing in the reaction.

    To bold: And that's what makes us dumb to normal people. For them, if we can't see the basic things then we HAVE to be idiots. INFJs can at least give sensors the benefit of the doubt by saying: 'They see the world in a less complicated way than I do. Lucky bastards.'
    'Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.' - Marilyn Monroe

    This is who I am, escapist, paradise-seeker.
    -Nightwish

    Anthropology Major out of Hamline University. St. Paul, Minnesota.

  3. #13
    Senior Member vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post
    To bold: And that's what makes us dumb to normal people. For them, if we can't see the basic things then we HAVE to be idiots. INFJs can at least give sensors the benefit of the doubt by saying: 'They see the world in a less complicated way than I do. Lucky bastards.'
    Ha yeah !

    Exactly. It's a cruel world I live in. The fact that most people are superficial morons isn't enough. They have to think I'm the moron on top of it !

    Seriously, this world = the movie "idiocracy"

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodewitch View Post
    No Exit..
    Ughh playing the video loop over and over in your head and trying to unravel what seems like a totally impossible squiggly ball of knotted string is awful isnt it. Where did it all go wrong?
    Who started it?
    Who's to blame?
    Impossible to really know as both of your personalities and experiences set this all in motion from the moment you met.
    I thought hard about replying to your thread, as I am going to have to 'out' myself as one of those bitter, Fi using nastier INFJ's. But,.. you're hurting, and right now, maybe a perspective from another INFJ who has similar traits to your ex girlfreind could at least serve to make you realise it wasnt all just you, and that maybe neither of you are really the villains here.
    I have just been parted from someone in a very similar way to you and your ex, through oth our behaviours.
    People like your ex and myself are usually very insecure about certainaspects of relationships, like trust, and confidence that we are loved. We try to control it by being very J and giving a list of demands as your ex did to you, the conditions you mentioned were the only way she would have felt safe and 'respected' enough by you, to go into a relationship.. essentially this is mostly her problem, but it stems from fear of being used, or treated lightly, and without respect.
    As you say, at one point, you maybe didnt treat her or the feeling you had for her, and her for you, very seriously. For me, and maybe for her, this is like the worst fear coming true. A stark realisation that the love we are putting into someone is not reciprocated... a sort of mini death to an INFJ's ego, if theyre already low on self esteem. She may have wanted to offer redemption because at that point she wanted you, but in reality, the damage was done,.. and she stood as a secret judge jury and executioner on you.
    Trust me, she would have wanted to try and get on with things, forgive and be happy again with you, but that hurt will have manifested itself in outbursts of temper, resentment, and being uber critical of you. NI and Fe can find the best way to really hit you where it hurts, and deep inside, she will have felt compelled to hurt you in revenge for you hurting her.
    That was the pivotal point.
    It happened.
    Some people could have sincerely forgiven each other and gotten past that point, but a fearful, low self esteem, lonely INFJ cannot seem to ever get past a hurt. In a strange way, insecurity can look very much like massive ego, because we're so desperately tring to compensate for our own fears about how worthless and unlovable we are.
    Bear in mind I'm talking about the 'unhealthy' kind of INFJ here.
    So, to sum up,.. although you both made mistakes, none of these mistakes should have been enough to leave you both feeling as hurt as you both are.
    this dynamic is too dysfunctional to ever really be repaired, i beleive.
    the best you can do is understand that all this was in existence before you even said hello,... all that happened is that you two getting together, made the circumstances possible for all these unhealthy/insecure behaviours to have full reign.
    Neither of you should beat up on yourselves, all the two of you.. or in this case, all YOU can do, is know that you tried the best you could at the time,.. thats all anyone can do.
    You've learned lessons, she will have too, wether she ever admits it to you or not.
    If you take anything from my post, please take this... a relationship is supposed to make you happier than you were, its supposed to be an enhancement in your life, its supposed to make you smile, when the dynamic becomes angst ridden, and full of fighting against each other, then its apparent that you were not compatible,.. too much arguing is never a good sign.
    INFJ's of all types, healthy or not, are pretty intense, and im sure loving us can be a very very hard task at times, as we can never seem to get enough of the stuff
    Trying to give that much love is a tall order, and mistakes will be made in trying to fill that expectation.
    You've tried, now please,.. on wards and upwards and regain your happiness
    G. x
    Wow!!!

    Ok now this post has the meat I am looking for.
    I am astounded at how much you nailed things..
    Yes My ex is also a 5w4 .. And you seem to understand what happened by knowing so little about us.
    First off I am sorry for your recent break up.. It is one of lifes least pleasant experiences despite the opportunities it presents for growth.
    What a way to learn eh?
    If you are correct about her.. Then I am vindicated in ways that you can't or can imagine.
    But.. ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT ON SOME LEVEL SHE ACTUALLY KNEW WHAT SHE WAS DOING???
    See that would change everything.
    It was bad enough that she constantly denied my perceptions (and believe me the things you said were my perceptions).. But to think she actually was punishing me is a very bitter pill to swallow.
    I can handle negligence, stupidity, ignorance and carelessness and find a way to forgive.. But malice is a bit tougher.. especially from someone who seems so affected by the malice of others. How much more hypocrisy can I actually take?? My love for her starts dying at the thought and that is quite sad.
    I will own what I did to hurt her.. I own it.. I was careless and doubtful and pushed her.. no lets be honest.. tossed her aside a few times. But it was my own confusion and insecurities. There was no ill will , no cruel intention. No want to hurt her.
    To think that all that struggle was just her way of getting even, is heart breaking..

    Thank you for sharing.. You might be an INFJ who uses Fi.. I am an INFP who uses Ni.. and I am sure I dreamed about two nights ago. All the old symbolism was there. But the cast was very different. and there was the long dark haired Brit chick who I couldn't quite place..
    You don't wear rocker T shirts by any chance do you?

    Again, thanks

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I was going to encourage you to share what happened, because it's really only in finally throwing it out there that we exorcise it from us. But it sounds like you hurt her inadvertently, and she is distancing herself, has distanced herself, or is punishing you in some way.

    What I will first say transcends type; we are all responsible for our feelings and actions. If someone hurts you, it is ultimately you who allows it to permeate you and perceive it as hurt, as difficult as that is to accept. Conversely, if someone is nice to you, it feels good but it's not really about you either. It's about them, just as how you are in the world is about you; good or bad. You bring people into your life and assign to them value, just as others do to you. You need only be concerned with how you treat others, that's it. If you always give love, love will come your way. This doesn't necessarily happen on a case-by-case basis, indeed, doesn't usually happen that way at all, but a loving intent will produce a loving environment. That includes loving yourself of course.

    When someone is "damaged" or has sustained a lifetime of hurt or abuse, they could bring to any relationship they have that inherent ego, and its bruises or scars. It very likely might be difficult for them to separate out where they end and others begin, because their sense of self can be harder to locate, which will make for haphazard boundaries that are always in flux. Unless they have done a lot of soul-searching and healing, and have learned by objective intentions to understand well where their boundaries lie, they are likely to not understand how to be fully with another. Healthy people have learned by the time they get intimately involved (which is one reason I am against childhood dating) where those emo boundaries are, for the most part. When emotional boundaries get muddied, it can be the hardest situation for an F type to navigate, especially two F types together.

    What can we do when we hurt someone? We apologize sincerely, and if possible, figure out where it came from, but not so much to hash through with the person who was hurt, more so that the same won't happen again. Beyond that, we can only offer what we have to give and no more. If we offer something beyond ourselves, turn ourselves inside-out so to speak, it is doomed to failure because we cannot sustain a relationship if we cannot sustain ourselves. Again, this is where those who struggle to maintain their basic sense of self on a daily basis could have trouble maintaining a healthy relationship. Not that it can't be done, but it just takes more work for them, and work that, I believe, is best done alone, outside of a relationship. Then they can bring back that healthier sense of self to offer later.

    Then we get into more type related stuff. If Love were enough we'd be living in Utopia right now. Love is one small piece of what makes two people work together. Being able to communicate, and communicate effectively, is paramount for getting along and not losing one's sanity in the process. The Fi and the Fe thing are very different ways of being, and I think breeds some of the hardest communication gaps to bridge. Navigating communication between Fe and Fi can be tricky stuff in even a normal situation. Compound this by an ego dysfunction or a stressful time, and it's like when a fishhook becomes imbedded in your skin. Your instinct is to simply pull it out, because that usually always works with anything else; but in this case doing what is natural hurts worse, you have to think counter intuitively to solve each problem, which is tiring. Consequently, no one usually lets a fishhook become imbedded because we are extra careful in future. If you keep handling fishhooks, however, and they keep becoming lodged under your skin, you will have a gaping, nasty wound that will take a very long time to heal. You can try things to avoid getting hurt, like altering how you handle it, or protecting yourself a bit more, but it's just the nature of the situation to a large degree. Until the Fe person and the Fi person each become more comfortable with Fi and Fe in themselves, communication can be difficult.

    to you both.
    Thank you.. this is sheer brilliance.. perhaps a bit late after reading Goodewitch's post.. But still very valuable.
    perhaps I will share the whole story at some point.. But I am overwhelmed at the moment.

  6. #16
    Member Goodewitch's Avatar
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    No Exit
    You ask if she in some way knew what she was doing?
    Well yes, in the same way that an addict knows that they are destroying theselves with every hit they take. You know its bad, but you just cant seem to help it, or step away from the compulsive/impulse.
    Lets keep it to the one specific pivotal point at which things seem to have taken turns for the worse.
    You say you were careless and tossed her aside a few times due to your own insecurities, but that you never intended to hurt her. The intent (if shes smart) would have been obvious to her, she may have known you intended no malice, but the actions still whammed into her like a speeding train. The actions hit her full on in that vunerable spot that is her deepest fears. Its an unstoppable reaction, a lashing back out at you.. blow for blow was how she saw it. She may have wanted to stop the fight,.. but once you're running on fear fuelled adrenaline, your INFJ mouth engages and the verbal damage inflicted on the poor P person is heavy.
    In all her venom against you, in her push/pull/hot/cold,..she was probably as sincere as you in wanting to work it out and be happy, but J cannot rely or feel safe with P when the J is already fearful and insecure. What a fearful J craves is security, definateness, consistency,..in order to feel like they're not balanced on a very wobby foundation.
    Your P could not give that security, no matter what the inent was, it did hurt.
    Is that her fault? Your fault? nope,.. just two different people getting together, each seeking something in the other that they could not give, cos they didnt have it.
    She wanted security and certainty, you wanted to be able to figure stuff out and come to your own realisations without being 'directed' by the J.
    Here are some of the venomous barbs i layed out to my P person whilst feeling hurt
    'Youre weak willed!'
    Pathetic!
    You're insensitive and selfish.
    'You couldnt make a decison and stick to it if you tried!'
    You're messing me about, playing with me, changing your mind.
    You have no real opinions on anything!
    You're like a bit of driftwood.

    Some of his to me..
    You're standards and opinions on things are so rigid, and you're sooo judgemental on me and everyone/everything else!
    You try to control me!'
    You rant and rave and say the most horrible things to me
    You're like a split personality!'
    You're manipulative, you pretend to care about me, but you just want to rule my life.
    'Dont tell me what to do and what to think!
    You're venomous and hypocritical!'
    Any/all of these sound familiar?
    Meh, No exit, its just two incompatible people trying to turn each other into different things, a J trying to make a P into a J, and vice versa.
    Its just one insecure fearful reactionary J, fighting for what she saw as her right to assert herself, and her boundaries, but in an altogether far too fear based reactionary way,... and a P who never really knew that his prevarication was causing so much hurt and fear.
    two very hurt and bewildered people who like/love each other, but cant seem to be what the other one wants them to be.
    So, if any of that rings true for you, think of it like this, neither you nor her are to 'blame' per se,... you both just chose the wrong person to get your needs from. In an ideal world, we would all take a step back from our emotions and motivations and discuss things calmly and rationally, but emotions and indeed human beings dont work like that.
    Again, I'll say this, if its TOO difficult, and angsty, then its best to part with affection intact, and no hard feelings, if possible. yes, theres sadness it didnt work, but no ill will

    Oh, and yes,.. as INFJ's are future orientated, theres every possibility I stole into the background of your dream, as a representative of your girlfreinds inner conflicts, complete with Rocker T shirt
    Good luck, my freind, and dont be hard on yerself, its taken me to 40 years old to realise what I was doing and what part I play in my own downfall, cut yourself, and your ex some slack
    Love G. x
    My INFJ license is regulary revoked,.. I am a sometime refugee in the INTJ holding centre.

  7. #17
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    INFJs are the most empathic type of all. So an INFJ would be the absolute last person or type NOT to notice the unhappiness of someone around him/her.
    Other than that I do relate to what you said.

    I think a better example might be :
    INFJs are going to miss the literal text of what someone is saying to them, rather than the general vibe they get from that person.
    Actually, the experimental evidence suggest otherwise. This site here lists male INFJs as being one of the types most likely to be "oblivious" to their partners unhappyness. They have the original source listed, if you feel like tracking it down and checking out more of the details. Sadly, it doesn't list how common such a thing might be amongst the females, nor suggest a reason why the differance might exist.

    INFJ - Introverted iNtuitive Feeling Judging

  8. #18
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Actually, the experimental evidence suggest otherwise. This site here lists male INFJs as being one of the types most likely to be "oblivious" to their partners unhappyness. They have the original source listed, if you feel like tracking it down and checking out more of the details. Sadly, it doesn't list how common such a thing might be amongst the females, nor suggest a reason why the differance might exist.

    INFJ - Introverted iNtuitive Feeling Judging
    Makes sense to me. There's a difference between being worried about the others' happiness, and knowing their state of happiness.

    To be honest, INFJs are pretty self centered... like pretty close to all humans.
    'Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.' - Marilyn Monroe

    This is who I am, escapist, paradise-seeker.
    -Nightwish

    Anthropology Major out of Hamline University. St. Paul, Minnesota.

  9. #19
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Spot on, Goodewitch!

    I think it takes a healthy INFP and a healthy INFJ to successfully bridge the Fi-Fe gap.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    Spot on, Goodewitch!

    I think it takes a healthy xxFP and a healthy xxFJ to successfully bridge the Fi-Fe gap.
    Fixed.

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