• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[Ti] ENFP & Ti

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Yeah, it is very hard to find a lot of info on what Ti is like for ENFP's.

Berens' description of Trickster Fi (EFP's):

They are usually not interested in identifying principles or categorizing, but under stress they tend to be deceived into engaging, accepting, and rigidly following selected principles, thinking that doing so will ensure success when it really won't. They may make statements or believe in ideas that are contradictory and illogical. Yet at times they can delight in exploring models and frameworks.


Also, Beebe himself describes its positive side more in this interview by an ENFP, where he describes her INTP husband as providing "a source of humor about introverts" or something like that:
http:// www.centerpointec.com/files/typology_Development.pdf

The part that seems the most Ti to me is when an NFP is more trying to use logic to back up Fi. Possibly reached after the bolded section. Eventually the logical contradictions start to surface mentally, they are analyzed and processed, and they are able to take on Ti as a tool to back Fi.
 

Little Linguist

Striving for balance
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
6,880
MBTI Type
xNFP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
But did you read it??? I MEAN REALLY??? It's just...wow, this explains....it explains everything I couldn't explain and thought I was just weird or couldn't function like others....but it really, really explains. And all these wonderful metaphors, and just.... okay give me a minute. :wubbie::wubbie::wubbie::wubbie:
 

Moiety

New member
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
5,996
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Just wanted to add that the way I experience Ti is not in opposition or support of Fi necessarily, but as an alternative way to look at things. Whenever it's not an issue of right or wrong...I'm inclined to use Ti to some degree too.
 

Little Linguist

Striving for balance
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
6,880
MBTI Type
xNFP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Wow, I'm just way too excited about this interview right now to really give an accurate analysis. I feel like there are fireworks in my brain. I have to let my synapses calm down, process, and then I can present my ideas about it. I don't know why I have such a strong reaction to it, but it was just....:wubbie::wubbie::wubbie:
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Wow, I'm just way too excited about this interview right now to really give an accurate analysis. I feel like there are fireworks in my brain. I have to let my synapses calm down, process, and then I can present my ideas about it. I don't know why I have such a strong reaction to it, but it was just....:wubbie::wubbie::wubbie:

Its intuition combined with desire causing confusion ;)
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Indeed!!!!!!! :D Well spotted. So, you did read it, I see! :)

Yes, it hit me in a different manner then it hit you :)

edit: actually everytime I read it I grab something new. It contains a whole lot of information in this single interview.
 

simulatedworld

Freshman Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
5,552
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
+1

This thread is silly.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go show my INFP how to use Ti by teaching her a little C++. Then I'm going to hone in a bit on my own Fi by creating a really unique painting representative of my current emotional state.

:)doh:)

tee-hee


if you think they're wrong is it because you think they're not understanding you? i'm curious about how ne and ti work together for you...is it an instant understanding of a situation in logical terms? because i feel like i instantly get things too..and get frustrated when it takes awhile for the other person to understand or assume that i don't because my opinion is different....but i'm truly asking because i'm not sure if the way we come to a conclusion has merit in all instances. is it just going with the gut instinct based on fi? and does that make it more inaccurate or just different?

Sorry I somehow missed this post until now.

The "instantly getting it" that you refer to is, I believe, best described as Ne. All at once you just recognize the relationship between a bunch of different variables as all part of some larger pattern that changes the meaning of each individual variable and everything just falls into place. That much we (ENTPs and ENFPs) definitely have in common.

But the discrepancy comes in the criteria upon which we evaluate the information that we take in. The frustration you're talking about when others don't get it as quickly as you is usually not a problem between ENTP and ENFP--I feel like we can both pretty easily follow each other's reasoning process (Ne), but that each of us thinks the other is starting from flawed premises (due to Ti/Fe vs. Fi/Te difference.)

As I said earlier we both have strong preconceived notions about how to evaluate ideas, stemming mostly from Ti vs. Fi, so when it's a situation where we already have the value in question clearly defined (i.e., one requiring introverted judgment), we'll both make very quick decisions. But each of us will almost immediately see how the other reached his conclusion, recognize the "flaw" in the other's judgment process, and start making up more examples and analogies to "correct" the other.

So in short, ENTPs and ENFPs can be great friends as long as we focus on doing stuff that we both find interesting and entertaining, and not talking too much about moral/political/philosophical disagreements :)

Anyway, I don't think anyone's conclusions have merit in all instances. Ti and Fi are sort of "gut feelings" because they lead to decisions based on subjective standards for evaluation, which the user simply "knows" are right. Like all introverted functions, they are based on evaluating the outside world in the context of personal subjective criteria, so they can at times be disconnected from what is objectively demonstrable. ENTPs tend to find logic innately obvious (Ti) but consider ethics something that has to be defined by external conditions (Fe), while ENFPs do the opposite (Fi/Te.)

Sometimes operating on subjective judgment can make our conclusions less accurate...sometimes it just makes them different. This is really context-dependent, and evaluating "accuracy" is going to depend on your preferred judgment faculties anyway. But if you're worried that Fi is making you inaccurate (which sounds like a Te thing), try to differentiate between situations that need to be dealt with subjectively (where you will listen to Fi/your conscience) vs. objectively (where you will let Te guide you according to objectively verifiable external standards.)

Surely each will be right some of the time, and trying to figure out which situations are which is part of everyone's growth and development.
 

Moiety

New member
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
5,996
MBTI Type
ISFJ
+1

This thread is silly.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go show my INFP how to use Ti by teaching her a little C++. Then I'm going to hone in a bit on my own Fi by creating a really unique painting representative of my current emotional state.

:)doh:)

You think it's coincidence that Ti is useful in programming and that TPs tend to have a knack for it?

Do you think the same parts of the brain, can't be stimulated by activities that require that kind of analysis?
 

simulatedworld

Freshman Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
5,552
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
You think it's coincidence that Ti is useful in programming and that TPs tend to have a knack for it?

Do you think the same parts of the brain, can't be stimulated by activities that require that kind of analysis?

Ti is a perspective, not a skill set. There are certain skill sets that people who naturally see from the Ti perspective have a tendency to be good at, but imitating those skills doesn't necessitate actually seeing from that perspective. It usually just results in figuring out how to perform that skill from the standpoint of your own preferred functional perspectives.

For ENFPs this means that figuring out something like programming is usually going to be done in Te terms, which is why it's a little harder for most ENFPs but not impossible if they're willing to dedicate the time to studying it. They're going to tend to think about it from a more objective standpoint than ENTPs...they will focus on "What shows objective results?", where the Ti user will build an internal framework for understanding it purely out of a desire to complete the puzzle and understand the relationships that make it internally consistent.

Either approach can lead to successful programming, but each person is going to internalize the information and conceptualize the system differently.
 

Moiety

New member
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
5,996
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Ti is a perspective, not a skill set. There are certain skill sets that people who naturally see from the Ti perspective have a tendency to be good at, but imitating those skills doesn't necessitate actually seeing from that perspective. It usually just results in figuring out how to perform that skill from the standpoint of your own preferred functional perspectives.

Is this about Ne Fi Ti being a direct contradiction to Ne Fi Te when it comes to MBTI model? WHY can't a person adopt and incorporate different perspectives throughout life? If until 12 or so, ENPs are basically the same...and only then do we start to show preference towards Fi or Ti...why isn't can't an individual be able to try out the two different perspectives?

For ENFPs this means that figuring out something like programming is usually going to be done in Te terms, which is why it's a little harder for most ENFPs but not impossible if they're willing to dedicate the time to studying it. They're going to tend to think about it from a more objective standpoint than ENTPs...they will focus on "What shows objective results?", where the Ti user will build an internal framework for understanding it purely out of a desire to complete the puzzle and understand the relationships that make it internally consistent.

Either approach can lead to successful programming, but each person is going to internalize the information and conceptualize the system differently.

I'm not at all goal/output oriented in programming. I can be perfectionist and like to simplify things so as make it as efficient as possible.

I think your theory seems like it comes from assuming an ENFP can't use Ti and then making sense of the data to prove it, instead of looking at the data and seeing what can be proven based on it. What you say only makes sense if we assume from the get go ENFPs don't use Ti. I'm personally not convinced.

I'd be much more inclined to agree that good use of Ti is a rare occurrence in ENFPs than to say they flat out cannot use Ti, and only use Te.


But regardless of all that, would my ease with logic imply that I'm using Te effectively (i.e. do I have good Te)?
 

simulatedworld

Freshman Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
5,552
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Is this about Ne Fi Ti being a direct contradiction to Ne Fi Te when it comes to MBTI model? WHY can't a person adopt and incorporate different perspectives throughout life? If until 12 or so, ENPs are basically the same...and only then do we start to show preference towards Fi or Ti...why isn't can't an individual be able to try out the two different perspectives?

They probably do in young age; it's just that as we get older we become, in most cases, permanently ingrained into one particular set of perspectives. It's not just about it contradicting the model; it's about Fi and Ti having such difficulty coexisting in the same person for extended periods of time that most skills will be learned in terms of one or the other (and its accompanying Je function--Te for Fi-ers and Fe for Ti-ers.)



I'm not at all goal/output oriented in programming. I can be perfectionist and like to simplify things so as make it as efficient as possible.

"As efficient as possible" = Te. Ti is more like, "As interesting and comprehensive as possible."

I think your theory seems like it comes from assuming an ENFP can't use Ti and then making sense of the data to prove it, instead of looking at the data and seeing what can be proven based on it. What you say only makes sense if we assume from the get go ENFPs don't use Ti. I'm personally not convinced.

Well, you're not obliged to be.

I'd be much more inclined to agree that good use of Ti is a rare occurrence in ENFPs than to say they flat out cannot use Ti, and only use Te.

Actually that's what I already said. Read thread.


But regardless of all that, would my ease with logic imply that I'm using Te effectively (i.e. do I have good Te)?

It depends on the kind of logic you're using, what the situation is, what perspective you're applying logic from and for what purpose.
 

visaisahero

New member
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
557
MBTI Type
ENTP
I'm curious about simulatedworld's statement "Ti is a perspective, not a skill set."

I do agree completely that it is a perspective- Fi is, too.

I think it's also important to acknowledge that there are unique skill sets that are closely related to each function- to ALL functions, in fact. I would go so far as to say that every function has a unique "related skill-set".

These skill sets do NOT represent or replace the perspectives, but they are definitely relevant, don't you think?

EDIT: To elaborate on my thoughts- using the perspective does not necessarily provide you with the skill sets, but it puts you on the right track towards acquiring them if you put in the time and effort. Using the skill sets does not necessarily give you the perspective on a silver platter, but you may become more aware of it along the way.

OR to put it more succintly- if an Fi dominant learns to use the Ti skill set effectively, and becomes aware of the Ti perspective, is it so wrong to say that she's using Ti? Where's the turning point? Eventually the training wheels do come off, I'm sure.
 

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
isnt it abivous that Ti and Fi are perspectives to looking at something?

Ti takes outsiders perspective to what ever thing is being processed. Its like taking the matter, turning it into an object and figuring out how does it work by keeping it in hand and looking it from multiple perspectives while trying to figure out how it works.

Fi looks how you feel about it personally, it doesent turn the matter into an object that you look from outsiders point of view, the what ever thing you are looking at just is this way because you feel this way about it.

This is why i think people who use Fi have really hard time of making a decision using Ti, so they prefer to use Te instead if they use thinking. Using Fi and Te may seem like some kind of introverted thinking, but its not Ti unless you turn the matter into an object and look it from outsiders point of view, and if you want to do that you need to shut down Fi completely.
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
isnt it abivous that Ti and Fi are perspectives to looking at something?

Ti takes outsiders perspective to what ever thing is being processed. Its like taking the matter, turning it into an object and figuring out how does it work by keeping it in hand and looking it from multiple perspectives while trying to figure out how it works.

Fi looks how you feel about it personally, it doesent turn the matter into an object that you look from outsiders point of view, the what ever thing you are looking at just is this way because you feel this way about it.

This is why i think people who use Fi have really hard time of making a decision using Ti, so they prefer to use Te instead if they use thinking. Using Fi and Te may seem like some kind of introverted thinking, but its not Ti unless you turn the matter into an object and look it from outsiders point of view, and if you want to do that you need to shut down Fi completely.

Maybe an INFP can chime in, but I think Fi does the same things as you mentioned Ti does "takes outsiders perspective to what ever thing is being processed. Its like taking the matter, turning it into an object and figuring out how does it work by keeping it in hand and looking it from multiple perspectives while trying to figure out how it works." Its from a feeling perspective. I dont think that Ti can do anything that an Fi cant. Its like parallel processes focused on different areas. It may function different like say an analog vs digital processor, but it can essentially perform the same functions, just differently.

This is from an S perspective and I can easily see an Fi user trying to take an outsiders perspective on feeling, but I just cant mentally figure out or envision what this is like.

edit: since we have ENTPs in this thread when I say "see" I am referring to Se and not an internal thought, mental vision, or understanding in regard to this post. An ENTP I work with uses the word vision and see to refer to an internal vision. I use the word envision to refer to an internal vision.
 

Lady_X

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
18,235
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
784
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
it is a process of reasoning yes...like this makes sense in this context because the world works in this way...and this person must have meant this because it places value on that

never mind i just woke up
_Sleep__by_muslma.gif
 

Little Linguist

Striving for balance
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
6,880
MBTI Type
xNFP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
isnt it abivous that Ti and Fi are perspectives to looking at something?

Ti takes outsiders perspective to what ever thing is being processed. Its like taking the matter, turning it into an object and figuring out how does it work by keeping it in hand and looking it from multiple perspectives while trying to figure out how it works.

Fi looks how you feel about it personally, it doesent turn the matter into an object that you look from outsiders point of view, the what ever thing you are looking at just is this way because you feel this way about it.

This is why i think people who use Fi have really hard time of making a decision using Ti, so they prefer to use Te instead if they use thinking. Using Fi and Te may seem like some kind of introverted thinking, but its not Ti unless you turn the matter into an object and look it from outsiders point of view, and if you want to do that you need to shut down Fi completely.

I think the confusing thing here is that Fi + Te does really feel like turning a matter into an object and looking at it from an outsider's point of view. But not really. Kind of. Maybe.
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I think the confusing thing here is that Fi + Te does really feel like turning a matter into an object and looking at it from an outsider's point of view. But not really. Kind of. Maybe.

So could the use of Te be an alternate judgement from Fi for the purpose of understanding without actually digging in with Fi and reaching a deeper understanding of the feeling itself. It does this through categorization of external logic or something.
 

Lady_X

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
18,235
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
784
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
i don't claim to know how the functions work but it seems to me that the reasoning is fi based and organized through te...not sure.
 

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
Maybe an INFP can chime in, but I think Fi does the same things as you mentioned Ti does "takes outsiders perspective to what ever thing is being processed. Its like taking the matter, turning it into an object and figuring out how does it work by keeping it in hand and looking it from multiple perspectives while trying to figure out how it works." Its from a feeling perspective. I dont think that Ti can do anything that an Fi cant. Its like parallel processes focused on different areas. It may function different like say an analog vs digital processor, but it can essentially perform the same functions, just differently.

This is from an S perspective and I can easily see an Fi user trying to take an outsiders perspective on feeling, but I just cant mentally figure out or envision what this is like.

edit: since we have ENTPs in this thread when I say "see" I am referring to Se and not an internal thought, mental vision, or understanding in regard to this post. An ENTP I work with uses the word vision and see to refer to an internal vision. I use the word envision to refer to an internal vision.

The difference between Fi and Ti is that Ti takes objective point of view and Fi takes subjective point of view. Meaning when you take objective point of view, you look it from outsiders point of view and disregard personal feelings to the matter. When you take subjective point of view you look at personal values, how you feel about the matter etc. Fi doesent take outsiders point of view(objective) like Ti does.

I think the confusing thing here is that Fi + Te does really feel like turning a matter into an object and looking at it from an outsider's point of view. But not really. Kind of. Maybe.

Imo with Te and Fi its kinda like, since your preferred judging function is introverted, from that introverted point of view the extraverted judging function seems to take an objective point of view since from that internal point of view external things seem objective. But since Te is not your preferred judging function, you dont use it the same way for making decisions as intj or entj would for example. Its more as an categorizing/organizing function for you and you use it with Fi to make the final decision.
 
Top