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Thread: ENFP & Ti

  1. #81
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    The difference between Fi and Ti is that Ti takes objective point of view and Fi takes subjective point of view. Meaning when you take objective point of view, you look it from outsiders point of view and disregard personal feelings to the matter. When you take subjective point of view you look at personal values, how you feel about the matter etc. Fi doesent take outsiders point of view(objective) like Ti does.
    I agree with Poki. Even though it's true Fi doesn't tend towards taking an objective outsider's view, it isn't so bad at trying on a subjective outsider's view.

    As I talk to someone, I'm very aware of the mental model I'm building up of their feelings, what's important to them and the meaning behind their words As long as there isn't a core value conflict, I'm pretty unthreatened by trying on perspectives different from my own. Face to face, in particular, I find it relatively easy to understand why someone might feel a certain way or believe a certain thing, even if it's not my personal belief.

    I found this confusing as a child, when I was puzzled that I could take on my Dad's perspective (he's an exceptionally inflexible ESTJ), but he couldn't entertain other perspectives in the same way. Maybe part of that is the Ne tendency to explore possibility without necessarily committing to it.

    I spend a fair amount of time translating between people at work, and the ability to listen at more than a surface level comes in handy for that. I also think the ability to understand the perspective of others contributes to the INFP's reputation for being flexible and easy-going until a hidden value mine is hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Imo with Te and Fi its kinda like, since your preferred judging function is introverted, from that introverted point of view the extraverted judging function seems to take an objective point of view since from that internal point of view external things seem objective. But since Te is not your preferred judging function, you dont use it the same way for making decisions as intj or entj would for example. Its more as an categorizing/organizing function for you and you use it with Fi to make the final decision.
    I think Te tends to be used more of an implementation (and sometimes validation) tool for most INFPs. It is sometimes turned to as a last resort, such as when Fi is inapplicable to a situation, or as a means to power through a huge backlog of mundane-but-necessary tasks. I'm hardly the most Te-enabled INFP, though, so I'm sure someone else could answer better.

  2. #82
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I agree with Poki. Even though it's true Fi doesn't tend towards taking an objective outsider's view, it isn't so bad at trying on a subjective outsider's view.
    but its not truly an outsiders point of view if you imply personal values in it. it might seem like you process the thing from outsiders point of view, but you are applying personal values into it, so its more like you are looking at yourself from outsiders point of view, not the matter itself

  3. #83
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    OR to put it more succintly- if an Fi dominant learns to use the Ti skill set effectively, and becomes aware of the Ti perspective, is it so wrong to say that she's using Ti? Where's the turning point? Eventually the training wheels do come off, I'm sure.
    This.


    Quote Originally Posted by INTP
    The difference between Fi and Ti is that Ti takes objective point of view and Fi takes subjective point of view. Meaning when you take objective point of view, you look it from outsiders point of view and disregard personal feelings to the matter. When you take subjective point of view you look at personal values, how you feel about the matter etc. Fi doesent take outsiders point of view(objective) like Ti does.
    So you are saying that I, as a ENFP cannot be objective in that way? What exactly prevents me from doing it?



    This debate is getting too subjective. Let's come up with some concrete examples people of what kind of perspective an ENFP would be unable to use proficiently solving a concrete problem.



    To me, saying a FP can't use Ti is the same as saying Ss (a more objective and concrete and objective way of looking at the world, left brained) can't be an F (a more subjective and abstract way of judging the world, right brained) and that an N (abstract) can't be a T (concrete).

    Besides, we know of mental disorders like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder etc etc...I don't see what's so far fetched here.

  4. #84
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    but its not truly an outsiders point of view if you imply personal values in it. it might seem like you process the thing from outsiders point of view, but you are applying personal values into it, so its more like you are looking at yourself from outsiders point of view, not the matter itself
    Well, isn't that true of introversion (in this case introverted judgement) in general? Objects are defined in relation to the subject, rather than vice versa (as is true for extraversion). One could claim that INTPs are always just looking at their own theoretical models.

    Admittedly, Ti has a leg up on Fi, because it's both more easily communicated and has an detachable, externalizable evaluation system (logical reasoning).

  5. #85
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Admittedly, Ti has a leg up on Fi, because it's both more easily communicated and has an detachable, externalizable evaluation system (logical reasoning).
    Fi has one too, it's called congruence. And if any FP tells you otherwise, tell him or her to go fuck themselves.

  6. #86
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    So could the use of Te be an alternate judgement from Fi for the purpose of understanding without actually digging in with Fi and reaching a deeper understanding of the feeling itself. It does this through categorization of external logic or something.
    I use this quite frequently in academia, and it serves me well. When I am working in the academic world, Fi is pushed back to 3rd or 4th position, which is probably why so many people believed I was an iXTJ type in high school, at university, and most especially now that I teach students in higher levels of academia.

    One great thing about my development is that I feel nearly as comfortable using Te as Fi because due to external conditions, I had several more chances to develop my Te much, much earlier. Fi came later, thankfully, or perhaps I was only cognizant of my use of it later - it's hard to know.

  7. #87
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    So you are saying that I, as a ENFP cannot be objective in that way? What exactly prevents me from doing it?
    Im saying that its hard for Fi users to take an totally objective point of view. hmm how could i explain it.. what ever introverted judging function you have, the opposite judging function will be extraverted. This is because you cant have both thinking and feeling as introverted functions at same time, its more natural to extravert the opposite judging function. If you take point of view that includes personal values/how you feel about it(Fi), it just is no longer an objective point of view(Ti). But if there is something that you actually cant form an Fi judgement about, then it would be more easier to use Ti on it.

  8. #88
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Because I developed a very strong preference for Te much earlier than Fi, I can use it quite confidently if I choose. It's really hard to know which is stronger because it begs the question: Do I recognize Te more because it is an extraverted function, or do I indeed use it more frequently?

    The fact that I am unequivocally ENFP remains unchanged. However, for a long time, this concept eluded me, which caused a great deal of ambiguity regarding type.

    Fact of the matter is: ENFPs can indeed be objective, but we use a different MEANS of achieving the same target. That is what I meant by Ti-users laughing at us ENFPs floating around in a gravity-free room while they have gravity boots, when we could have taken a different path and avoided the gravity-free zone altogether by putting on combat boots and a uniform and going through the rough area instead. However, Ti-users cannot access or gain combat boots or uniforms - they have gravity-free boots, so if they circumvented the area, they would sink in the mud. Ti and Te gets the same thing through different means.

  9. #89
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Well, isn't that true of introversion (in this case introverted judgement) in general? Objects are defined in relation to the subject, rather than vice versa (as is true for extraversion). One could claim that INTPs are always just looking at their own theoretical models.

    Admittedly, Ti has a leg up on Fi, because it's both more easily communicated and has an detachable, externalizable evaluation system (logical reasoning).
    i know what your saying and think its true, its just that you are not using the exact right words in my opinion

    what does leg up on mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Because I developed a very strong preference for Te much earlier than Fi, I can use it quite confidently if I choose. It's really hard to know which is stronger because it begs the question: Do I recognize Te more because it is an extraverted function, or do I indeed use it more frequently?

    The fact that I am unequivocally ENFP remains unchanged. However, for a long time, this concept eluded me, which caused a great deal of ambiguity regarding type.

    Fact of the matter is: ENFPs can indeed be objective, but we use a different MEANS of achieving the same target. That is what I meant by Ti-users laughing at us ENFPs floating around in a gravity-free room while they have gravity boots, when we could have taken a different path and avoided the gravity-free zone altogether by putting on combat boots and a uniform and going through the rough area instead. However, Ti-users cannot access or gain combat boots or uniforms - they have gravity-free boots, so if they circumvented the area, they would sink in the mud. Ti and Te gets the same thing through different means.
    I will try and explain my experiences that I use to understand the move an ENFP makes from Te to Fi in regards to people. If an ENFP is interested in you they can go one of 2 routes. They can check for how they feel in regards to interactions and they can check to see if the 2 of you have enough similarities in certain categories or areas. The ENFP in the normal process of life has already categorized these things and allows them to use equality process. During the course of life they categorize these interactions for future use constantly growing in their understanding each and every step of the way.

    Neither are Ti and dont have anything to do with what I would consider as logic but more along the lines of equalities in regard to the Te manner. Possibly like bitwise comparisons.
    Im out, its been fun

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