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Thread: ENFP & Ti

  1. #71
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Ti is a perspective, not a skill set. There are certain skill sets that people who naturally see from the Ti perspective have a tendency to be good at, but imitating those skills doesn't necessitate actually seeing from that perspective. It usually just results in figuring out how to perform that skill from the standpoint of your own preferred functional perspectives.
    Is this about Ne Fi Ti being a direct contradiction to Ne Fi Te when it comes to MBTI model? WHY can't a person adopt and incorporate different perspectives throughout life? If until 12 or so, ENPs are basically the same...and only then do we start to show preference towards Fi or Ti...why isn't can't an individual be able to try out the two different perspectives?

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    For ENFPs this means that figuring out something like programming is usually going to be done in Te terms, which is why it's a little harder for most ENFPs but not impossible if they're willing to dedicate the time to studying it. They're going to tend to think about it from a more objective standpoint than ENTPs...they will focus on "What shows objective results?", where the Ti user will build an internal framework for understanding it purely out of a desire to complete the puzzle and understand the relationships that make it internally consistent.

    Either approach can lead to successful programming, but each person is going to internalize the information and conceptualize the system differently.
    I'm not at all goal/output oriented in programming. I can be perfectionist and like to simplify things so as make it as efficient as possible.

    I think your theory seems like it comes from assuming an ENFP can't use Ti and then making sense of the data to prove it, instead of looking at the data and seeing what can be proven based on it. What you say only makes sense if we assume from the get go ENFPs don't use Ti. I'm personally not convinced.

    I'd be much more inclined to agree that good use of Ti is a rare occurrence in ENFPs than to say they flat out cannot use Ti, and only use Te.


    But regardless of all that, would my ease with logic imply that I'm using Te effectively (i.e. do I have good Te)?

  2. #72
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Is this about Ne Fi Ti being a direct contradiction to Ne Fi Te when it comes to MBTI model? WHY can't a person adopt and incorporate different perspectives throughout life? If until 12 or so, ENPs are basically the same...and only then do we start to show preference towards Fi or Ti...why isn't can't an individual be able to try out the two different perspectives?
    They probably do in young age; it's just that as we get older we become, in most cases, permanently ingrained into one particular set of perspectives. It's not just about it contradicting the model; it's about Fi and Ti having such difficulty coexisting in the same person for extended periods of time that most skills will be learned in terms of one or the other (and its accompanying Je function--Te for Fi-ers and Fe for Ti-ers.)



    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I'm not at all goal/output oriented in programming. I can be perfectionist and like to simplify things so as make it as efficient as possible.
    "As efficient as possible" = Te. Ti is more like, "As interesting and comprehensive as possible."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I think your theory seems like it comes from assuming an ENFP can't use Ti and then making sense of the data to prove it, instead of looking at the data and seeing what can be proven based on it. What you say only makes sense if we assume from the get go ENFPs don't use Ti. I'm personally not convinced.
    Well, you're not obliged to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I'd be much more inclined to agree that good use of Ti is a rare occurrence in ENFPs than to say they flat out cannot use Ti, and only use Te.
    Actually that's what I already said. Read thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    But regardless of all that, would my ease with logic imply that I'm using Te effectively (i.e. do I have good Te)?
    It depends on the kind of logic you're using, what the situation is, what perspective you're applying logic from and for what purpose.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #73

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    I'm curious about simulatedworld's statement "Ti is a perspective, not a skill set."

    I do agree completely that it is a perspective- Fi is, too.

    I think it's also important to acknowledge that there are unique skill sets that are closely related to each function- to ALL functions, in fact. I would go so far as to say that every function has a unique "related skill-set".

    These skill sets do NOT represent or replace the perspectives, but they are definitely relevant, don't you think?

    EDIT: To elaborate on my thoughts- using the perspective does not necessarily provide you with the skill sets, but it puts you on the right track towards acquiring them if you put in the time and effort. Using the skill sets does not necessarily give you the perspective on a silver platter, but you may become more aware of it along the way.

    OR to put it more succintly- if an Fi dominant learns to use the Ti skill set effectively, and becomes aware of the Ti perspective, is it so wrong to say that she's using Ti? Where's the turning point? Eventually the training wheels do come off, I'm sure.
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    isnt it abivous that Ti and Fi are perspectives to looking at something?

    Ti takes outsiders perspective to what ever thing is being processed. Its like taking the matter, turning it into an object and figuring out how does it work by keeping it in hand and looking it from multiple perspectives while trying to figure out how it works.

    Fi looks how you feel about it personally, it doesent turn the matter into an object that you look from outsiders point of view, the what ever thing you are looking at just is this way because you feel this way about it.

    This is why i think people who use Fi have really hard time of making a decision using Ti, so they prefer to use Te instead if they use thinking. Using Fi and Te may seem like some kind of introverted thinking, but its not Ti unless you turn the matter into an object and look it from outsiders point of view, and if you want to do that you need to shut down Fi completely.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    isnt it abivous that Ti and Fi are perspectives to looking at something?

    Ti takes outsiders perspective to what ever thing is being processed. Its like taking the matter, turning it into an object and figuring out how does it work by keeping it in hand and looking it from multiple perspectives while trying to figure out how it works.

    Fi looks how you feel about it personally, it doesent turn the matter into an object that you look from outsiders point of view, the what ever thing you are looking at just is this way because you feel this way about it.

    This is why i think people who use Fi have really hard time of making a decision using Ti, so they prefer to use Te instead if they use thinking. Using Fi and Te may seem like some kind of introverted thinking, but its not Ti unless you turn the matter into an object and look it from outsiders point of view, and if you want to do that you need to shut down Fi completely.
    Maybe an INFP can chime in, but I think Fi does the same things as you mentioned Ti does "takes outsiders perspective to what ever thing is being processed. Its like taking the matter, turning it into an object and figuring out how does it work by keeping it in hand and looking it from multiple perspectives while trying to figure out how it works." Its from a feeling perspective. I dont think that Ti can do anything that an Fi cant. Its like parallel processes focused on different areas. It may function different like say an analog vs digital processor, but it can essentially perform the same functions, just differently.

    This is from an S perspective and I can easily see an Fi user trying to take an outsiders perspective on feeling, but I just cant mentally figure out or envision what this is like.

    edit: since we have ENTPs in this thread when I say "see" I am referring to Se and not an internal thought, mental vision, or understanding in regard to this post. An ENTP I work with uses the word vision and see to refer to an internal vision. I use the word envision to refer to an internal vision.
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  6. #76
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    it is a process of reasoning yes...like this makes sense in this context because the world works in this way...and this person must have meant this because it places value on that

    never mind i just woke up
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  7. #77
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    isnt it abivous that Ti and Fi are perspectives to looking at something?

    Ti takes outsiders perspective to what ever thing is being processed. Its like taking the matter, turning it into an object and figuring out how does it work by keeping it in hand and looking it from multiple perspectives while trying to figure out how it works.

    Fi looks how you feel about it personally, it doesent turn the matter into an object that you look from outsiders point of view, the what ever thing you are looking at just is this way because you feel this way about it.

    This is why i think people who use Fi have really hard time of making a decision using Ti, so they prefer to use Te instead if they use thinking. Using Fi and Te may seem like some kind of introverted thinking, but its not Ti unless you turn the matter into an object and look it from outsiders point of view, and if you want to do that you need to shut down Fi completely.
    I think the confusing thing here is that Fi + Te does really feel like turning a matter into an object and looking at it from an outsider's point of view. But not really. Kind of. Maybe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    I think the confusing thing here is that Fi + Te does really feel like turning a matter into an object and looking at it from an outsider's point of view. But not really. Kind of. Maybe.
    So could the use of Te be an alternate judgement from Fi for the purpose of understanding without actually digging in with Fi and reaching a deeper understanding of the feeling itself. It does this through categorization of external logic or something.
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  9. #79
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    i don't claim to know how the functions work but it seems to me that the reasoning is fi based and organized through te...not sure.
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  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Maybe an INFP can chime in, but I think Fi does the same things as you mentioned Ti does "takes outsiders perspective to what ever thing is being processed. Its like taking the matter, turning it into an object and figuring out how does it work by keeping it in hand and looking it from multiple perspectives while trying to figure out how it works." Its from a feeling perspective. I dont think that Ti can do anything that an Fi cant. Its like parallel processes focused on different areas. It may function different like say an analog vs digital processor, but it can essentially perform the same functions, just differently.

    This is from an S perspective and I can easily see an Fi user trying to take an outsiders perspective on feeling, but I just cant mentally figure out or envision what this is like.

    edit: since we have ENTPs in this thread when I say "see" I am referring to Se and not an internal thought, mental vision, or understanding in regard to this post. An ENTP I work with uses the word vision and see to refer to an internal vision. I use the word envision to refer to an internal vision.
    The difference between Fi and Ti is that Ti takes objective point of view and Fi takes subjective point of view. Meaning when you take objective point of view, you look it from outsiders point of view and disregard personal feelings to the matter. When you take subjective point of view you look at personal values, how you feel about the matter etc. Fi doesent take outsiders point of view(objective) like Ti does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    I think the confusing thing here is that Fi + Te does really feel like turning a matter into an object and looking at it from an outsider's point of view. But not really. Kind of. Maybe.
    Imo with Te and Fi its kinda like, since your preferred judging function is introverted, from that introverted point of view the extraverted judging function seems to take an objective point of view since from that internal point of view external things seem objective. But since Te is not your preferred judging function, you dont use it the same way for making decisions as intj or entj would for example. Its more as an categorizing/organizing function for you and you use it with Fi to make the final decision.

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