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[ENFJ] Trying to get an ENFJ to listen

Malkavia

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So I have two roommates who are twins...an ENFJ and an INTJ. These two kids have major communication problems.

Pretty much what it comes down to is my ENFJ (who is my best friend and love to death) just doesnt give words of affirmation to his brother. Honestly I can relate to this because he doesnt really do anything for me either. Even though this guy is an INTJ he needs love too, especially from his own brother.

I can NOT get this through the ENFJ's head. He refuses to listen to anyones ideas but his own, and his are ALWAYS much better and more righteous. How could I, a silly ENFP, know the relationship of him and his brother? It sucks seeing his brother suffer because I can see him hurting, and whats worse I kind of understand where he is coming from.

Ok rant over. Now on to constructive criticism.

Is there anyway to tell an ENFJ, "look your being a d-bag and you need to listen to me" in a nice way? He just doesnt seem to take what I say into consideration which is annoying, especially when I am more than sure that my solution is the right one. Ive talked to this INTJ about it, I know what he wants, and Im trying to help my best friend out with this but he wont LISTEN.
 

Kalach

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I tend to think that two Js with substantially differing basic priorities, if they can listen to each other at all, do so after the fact. In function terms, they're best off trying to add something to what the other one does later when they each go off to get some introverted space. But when the two are talking directly to each other, it's all J all the time. And in the case of FJ vs TJ, that means substantial perspective conflicts. But if they're both NJ there is some chance that they can offer ideas of possibilities that ring bells later. Not that this will ever be especially satisfying in the moment.

Or just, "Dude, you're wishing for the kind of relationship that won't happen and you're using force to achieve it. Give him some space to do what he does best. You might even like him better for it." Neither will believe it in the moment, but they might see it later.
 

Brendan

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So I have two roommates who are twins...an ENFJ and an INTJ.
:rofl1:

Ahh. I'm sorry :)
Is there anyway to tell an ENFJ, "look your being a d-bag and you need to listen to me" in a nice way? He just doesnt seem to take what I say into consideration which is annoying, especially when I am more than sure that my solution is the right one. Ive talked to this INTJ about it, I know what he wants, and Im trying to help my best friend out with this but he wont LISTEN.
Be sincere. Don't make an effort to be nice. That doesn't mean make an effort to be mean but just be honest. We know when it's time to listen (most of the time).
 

SpankyMcFly

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My credentials: Married to an ENFJ 9+ years.

Direct confrontation = fail. Telling them they are wrong = fail. Telling them what to do = fail.

What has worked for me is a subtle approach. Get them to step outside themselves and view the matter from a different perspective. Start from the outside, then when you sense a bit of understanding on their part make a move to the inside and ask them how they would "feel" (this part is critical) if they were in the other persons shoes. Do not judge, do not direct. Empathize and let them know you understand why they are acting that way. Show them the potential positive effects of a changed approach. They will turn their judgment onto themselves (in the hypothetical you painted) and possibly realize that maybe a new approach is needed.

The point here is not to show them what needs to change per se, or even how to go about changing it (they can/will probably figure this out on their own, some advise can't hurt though), but in convincing them that a change would be a good thing and is "needed".

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink"
 

INTP

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I know nothing about enfjs, but when telling people that they are wrong and/or what they should do doesent work, i try to make them think by themselves by pointing out things that are not working and asking them questions like why do you think that hes feeling bad and what do you think that could be done that he wouldnt feel bad. If he is unable to answer those question it will prove to them that they dont know better what should be done. In some situations(if they wont understand it by themselves) i might say them after that you were unable to answer these simple questions, so why do you think you know this all better than people who are able to answer to the questions.
 

simulatedworld

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How certain are we of the ENFJ's type? It's usually the NTJ who would have a much harder time giving positive affirmation when it's needed. In fact, the ENFJs I know often seem to give too much positive affirmation even when it's not warranted...
 

Craft

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^...or it could be that the ENFJ knows the INTJ doesn't need positive affirmation.

From experience.
 

Malkavia

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How certain are we of the ENFJ's type? It's usually the NTJ who would have a much harder time giving positive affirmation when it's needed. In fact, the ENFJs I know often seem to give too much positive affirmation even when it's not warranted...

100%. I remember he took the test himself and it said "the teacher" first. He talked for about 20 minutes about he is definitely the "the teacher" because he loves to educate people and blah blah blah...

Then he read the description and said both the negative and positive aspects fit him well. He didnt really go into MBTI more. But as I have learned about the functions and the effects of having those functions, I have become more sure he is an ENFJ. Reading the posts of other ENFJs on this forum have helped also. Although they are not 100% on target, they are usually in the same region.

I know this doesnt seem like ENFJ behavior but maybe its because hes male? He's also contracted to go into the army after we graduate. It could be from being around that type of military culture constantly. I dont know, just throwing things out there.

Its interesting. Because he can spend a night in a tent helping the homeless in Houston for a week (no, really), but he cant help those hes closest to when they need something small.

I think a major problem is neither have said anything like this in a very long time and they are afraid its going to be awkward. Buts it creating a wall in their relationship which then makes it bad for me because I live with them.

^...or it could be that the ENFJ knows the INTJ doesn't need positive affirmation.

From experience.

He does. The INTJ even told me he needs it. (Why he doesnt tell his twin, I dont know)

Just got to say, I really love these guys. Dont want to come off as someone who complains constantly or someones whos bitchy. I just have no idea what to do.
 

Chaolioe

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It may help a little in that my older brother is an ExFJ, and I know his ENFP girlfriend often uses a trick where she'll casually 'remind' him of some idea he had-- once he believes the idea was his own, he is a lot more willing to go along with it. I, myself, do not promote manipulating people in anyway, but I feel that this suggestion could maybe help in pushing your ENFJ buddy in the right direction.
Also, you say that it's making things complicated for you-- tell them both that, and see if you can mediate a discussion between them. I bet if they care about you, they'll be willing to put some sort of work into it if you're frank with them.
 

ragashree

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I'd probably second the above. Direct criticism just tends to make ENFJs dig their heels in and react defensively, no matter how deserved it may appear. Agreeing with them conditionally and dropping hints on where you disagree to make them think about their conduct is often the best approach, I think.
 
G

Glycerine

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I seriously don't see any problem here. I think the INTJ brother needs to tell the brother HIMSELF, not you (or maybe both of you guys should have talk with him). From my ENFJ POV, I would feel like it's none of your business and that you are trying to change a fairly neutral behavior. Unless, the ENFJ is acting like a jerk to his brother, there's no need to get involved.

Some people are just not very affectionate and that's just a part of life. I'm an ENFJ and I'm not all that affectionate... it's just who I am. Don't force him to change something like that. If someone tried to make me change something like that in my personality, I would be greatly offended. It kind of like saying "oh we don't like this part of you and we want you to change it make your brother happy. It would feel like you are JUDGING me. I am guessing the ENFJ shows his love through other means.

But like I said, if he's being a jerk to his brother, that's another story.

EDIT: You might want to read up on "love languages".
 

Malkavia

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I seriously don't see any problem here. I think the INTJ brother needs to tell the brother HIMSELF, not you (or maybe both of you guys should have talk with him). From my ENFJ POV, I would feel like it's none of your business and that you are trying to change a fairly neutral behavior. Unless, the ENFJ is acting like a jerk to his brother, there's no need to get involved.

Some people are just not very affectionate and that's just a part of life. I'm an ENFJ and I'm not all that affectionate... it's just who I am. Don't force him to change something like that. If someone tried to make me change something like that in my personality, I would be greatly offended. It kind of like saying "oh we don't like this part of you and we want you to change it make your brother happy. It would feel like you are JUDGING me. I am guessing the ENFJ shows his love through other means.

But like I said, if he's being a jerk to his brother, that's another story.

EDIT: You might want to read up on "love languages".

I understand where youre coming from. If there wasnt a shift in the ENFJs behavior I wouldnt be posting. Hes been giving him "the cold shoulder" for a while now and I dont know why. They've stopped having conversation deeper than how the weather is which is odd for both of them.

The INTJ recently renounced our faith (my ENFJ friend is a VERY strong Christian) and Im wondering if that has anything to do with it.

Honestly I dont know what to do. If I leave it alone I think it's going to get worse, but this INTJ is pretty scared to bring it up with him (Although I am in complete agreement with you Pitseleh that he should be the one to talk to him about it). Its doesnt come from stubbornness, its come from fear of disapproval from his brother.

As an update I talked to the INTJ last night and expressed that I think he just needs to talk to him himself. He said he would but I dont know when or how he is going to do it. And looking back at experience he will most likely be too direct and make the ENFJ close up, become defensive, and nothing will change.

Who knows though?
 

nynesneg

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I honestly wonder if they're having relationship issues and ENFJ is intentionally "giving him the cold shoulder". If you go and talk to him in that situation, it would directly exaserbate the problem. Not being able to listen is usually the opposite of my problems.

I'm very spontaneously "sweet" and give random compliments to people naturally. BUT within my own family we've never been close. In fact, when my dad tries to give me hugs it's really uncomfortable. He never came into my personal life stuff so I'm don't share affection well with him.

Could it be that they don't relate/get along intellectually and so won't give affirmation?

And I second what Pitseleh said about talking directly... And the person who said to approach it from a different point of view to help the ENFJ see the perspective hit it head on.
 

Unkindloving

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It's good to hear the INTJ has decided to have a talk with the ENFJ. That's probably the best way to get anything done. I think that the directly related party going to the ENFJ can score points, but i'm not sure with the sibling dynamic.
It makes me a bit concerned though due to knowing my type's value of conflict resolution and deeper connections. How is he toward everyone else lately? Is the cold shoulder just toward his brother?
My credentials: Married to an ENFJ 9+ years.

Direct confrontation = fail. Telling them they are wrong = fail. Telling them what to do = fail.

What has worked for me is a subtle approach. Get them to step outside themselves and view the matter from a different perspective. Start from the outside, then when you sense a bit of understanding on their part make a move to the inside and ask them how they would "feel" (this part is critical) if they were in the other persons shoes. Do not judge, do not direct. Empathize and let them know you understand why they are acting that way. Show them the potential positive effects of a changed approach. They will turn their judgment onto themselves (in the hypothetical you painted) and possibly realize that maybe a new approach is needed.

The point here is not to show them what needs to change per se, or even how to go about changing it (they can/will probably figure this out on their own, some advise can't hurt though), but in convincing them that a change would be a good thing and is "needed".

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink"

:yes: I completely agree.
In my experience, i know what needs to change and how to change it, but i need to see the purpose behind the change or obtain the reinforcement for it. Having people tell me what needs to happen or how to go about it without me asking is like asking to be met with a brick wall opposition.
 
G

Glycerine

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I understand where youre coming from. If there wasnt a shift in the ENFJs behavior I wouldnt be posting. Hes been giving him "the cold shoulder" for a while now and I dont know why. They've stopped having conversation deeper than how the weather is which is odd for both of them.

The INTJ recently renounced our faith (my ENFJ friend is a VERY strong Christian) and Im wondering if that has anything to do with it.

Honestly I dont know what to do. If I leave it alone I think it's going to get worse, but this INTJ is pretty scared to bring it up with him (Although I am in complete agreement with you Pitseleh that he should be the one to talk to him about it). Its doesnt come from stubbornness, its come from fear of disapproval from his brother.

As an update I talked to the INTJ last night and expressed that I think he just needs to talk to him himself. He said he would but I dont know when or how he is going to do it. And looking back at experience he will most likely be too direct and make the ENFJ close up, become defensive, and nothing will change.

Who knows though?

Oh ok, I didn't know all that. If he's acting like what you are describing, then he might need a really hard kick of reality. Something is up with the ENFJ. As an ENFJ, it's a weird balance between wanting someone acknowledge my problems and wanting alone time to process my problems. I am not sure what to tell you. He might need some alone time to process his values but then at the same time, don't let him have time to brood too much either. If this happens, the benefits of initial reflections might be harbored with hard feelings.

Maybe you can acknowledge how he is feeling and try to let him see that you understand where he's coming from and then you can slyly put in how you see the situation. For example, "hey John, it must be difficult that your brother and you can't see eye to eye...... even though you guys don't always get along, your brother loves you and wants to have a good relationship with you. " Key thing is to deal with him in a delicate manner and try hard not to put blame on him. After a subtle push, he will probably have an epiphany about his behavior.
 

Malkavia

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Thanks guys. I think time is the best solution for the matter.

I hate getting in between these types of problems because I dont want to choose sides. When you have two parties confiding problems about the other party to you, its hard to know how much to reveal to the other person in order to try and make things right.

Does anyone have any tips on being a good in-between person?

As an ENFP its hard because Im normally so open about conflict and it seems like both of these types (or maybe because their siblings) arent. I think the sibling aspect throws a major wrench in most personality profiles.

I just dont understand how my ENFJ friend can give up all of himself to someone he doesnt know, yet cannot let go a small piece of his time or pride to solve a small problem with someone he's close to.
 

Kalach

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I just dont understand how my ENFJ friend can give up all of himself to someone he doesnt know, yet cannot let go a small piece of his time or pride to solve a small problem with someone he's close to.

At the risk of just making up stuff - the relationship with his brother is already a far greater investment than helping some random person. Lo-o-o-o-ong history of decisions having been made. "Help" changes meaning.

Don't say this too loud in front of either of them, but years from now, only one of them is going to be routinely hurt still. (Not "still hurting", because both will move on, but once the INTJ is out on his own and no longer undermined, ENFJ is going to have less and less chance to be boss as each year passes. And it's not going to be a matter of ruthlessness, it's just going to be a matter of who does and doesn't make "me" feel like shit.)


Hm, probably not helping.
 

Moiety

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Arguing with my ENFJ mom is torturous. I have never once in 23 years been able to convince her of something she didn't want to be convinced about (and that's a lot of things).
 
G

Glycerine

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At the risk of just making up stuff - the relationship with his brother is already a far greater investment than helping some random person. Lo-o-o-o-ong history of decisions having been made. "Help" changes meaning.

Don't say this too loud in front of either of them, but years from now, only one of them is going to be routinely hurt still. (Not "still hurting", because both will move on, but once the INTJ is out on his own and no longer undermined, ENFJ is going to have less and less chance to be boss as each year passes. And it's not going to be a matter of ruthlessness, it's just going to be a matter of who does and doesn't make "me" feel like shit.)


Hm, probably not helping.

Who do you think will still hurt, the ENFJ? :devil:
 

cafe

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I don't think I'd even want to be involved in this kind of thing if it was between my own two children.

The ENFJ is probably really freaking out about the faith thing and needs some time to mull it over, sort it out and put it in perspective. You might tell him that you have noticed that he seems bothered lately and offer to be a listening ear if he ever wants to talk about it and if he asks for advice, you could give him suggestions, but that's about as far as I'd want to get up in that.
 
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