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  1. #11
    Glycerine
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    I seriously don't see any problem here. I think the INTJ brother needs to tell the brother HIMSELF, not you (or maybe both of you guys should have talk with him). From my ENFJ POV, I would feel like it's none of your business and that you are trying to change a fairly neutral behavior. Unless, the ENFJ is acting like a jerk to his brother, there's no need to get involved.

    Some people are just not very affectionate and that's just a part of life. I'm an ENFJ and I'm not all that affectionate... it's just who I am. Don't force him to change something like that. If someone tried to make me change something like that in my personality, I would be greatly offended. It kind of like saying "oh we don't like this part of you and we want you to change it make your brother happy. It would feel like you are JUDGING me. I am guessing the ENFJ shows his love through other means.

    But like I said, if he's being a jerk to his brother, that's another story.

    EDIT: You might want to read up on "love languages".

  2. #12
    Senior Member Malkavia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    I seriously don't see any problem here. I think the INTJ brother needs to tell the brother HIMSELF, not you (or maybe both of you guys should have talk with him). From my ENFJ POV, I would feel like it's none of your business and that you are trying to change a fairly neutral behavior. Unless, the ENFJ is acting like a jerk to his brother, there's no need to get involved.

    Some people are just not very affectionate and that's just a part of life. I'm an ENFJ and I'm not all that affectionate... it's just who I am. Don't force him to change something like that. If someone tried to make me change something like that in my personality, I would be greatly offended. It kind of like saying "oh we don't like this part of you and we want you to change it make your brother happy. It would feel like you are JUDGING me. I am guessing the ENFJ shows his love through other means.

    But like I said, if he's being a jerk to his brother, that's another story.

    EDIT: You might want to read up on "love languages".
    I understand where youre coming from. If there wasnt a shift in the ENFJs behavior I wouldnt be posting. Hes been giving him "the cold shoulder" for a while now and I dont know why. They've stopped having conversation deeper than how the weather is which is odd for both of them.

    The INTJ recently renounced our faith (my ENFJ friend is a VERY strong Christian) and Im wondering if that has anything to do with it.

    Honestly I dont know what to do. If I leave it alone I think it's going to get worse, but this INTJ is pretty scared to bring it up with him (Although I am in complete agreement with you Pitseleh that he should be the one to talk to him about it). Its doesnt come from stubbornness, its come from fear of disapproval from his brother.

    As an update I talked to the INTJ last night and expressed that I think he just needs to talk to him himself. He said he would but I dont know when or how he is going to do it. And looking back at experience he will most likely be too direct and make the ENFJ close up, become defensive, and nothing will change.

    Who knows though?

  3. #13
    Senior Member nynesneg's Avatar
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    I honestly wonder if they're having relationship issues and ENFJ is intentionally "giving him the cold shoulder". If you go and talk to him in that situation, it would directly exaserbate the problem. Not being able to listen is usually the opposite of my problems.

    I'm very spontaneously "sweet" and give random compliments to people naturally. BUT within my own family we've never been close. In fact, when my dad tries to give me hugs it's really uncomfortable. He never came into my personal life stuff so I'm don't share affection well with him.

    Could it be that they don't relate/get along intellectually and so won't give affirmation?

    And I second what Pitseleh said about talking directly... And the person who said to approach it from a different point of view to help the ENFJ see the perspective hit it head on.
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  4. #14
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    It's good to hear the INTJ has decided to have a talk with the ENFJ. That's probably the best way to get anything done. I think that the directly related party going to the ENFJ can score points, but i'm not sure with the sibling dynamic.
    It makes me a bit concerned though due to knowing my type's value of conflict resolution and deeper connections. How is he toward everyone else lately? Is the cold shoulder just toward his brother?
    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    My credentials: Married to an ENFJ 9+ years.

    Direct confrontation = fail. Telling them they are wrong = fail. Telling them what to do = fail.

    What has worked for me is a subtle approach. Get them to step outside themselves and view the matter from a different perspective. Start from the outside, then when you sense a bit of understanding on their part make a move to the inside and ask them how they would "feel" (this part is critical) if they were in the other persons shoes. Do not judge, do not direct. Empathize and let them know you understand why they are acting that way. Show them the potential positive effects of a changed approach. They will turn their judgment onto themselves (in the hypothetical you painted) and possibly realize that maybe a new approach is needed.

    The point here is not to show them what needs to change per se, or even how to go about changing it (they can/will probably figure this out on their own, some advise can't hurt though), but in convincing them that a change would be a good thing and is "needed".

    "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink"
    I completely agree.
    In my experience, i know what needs to change and how to change it, but i need to see the purpose behind the change or obtain the reinforcement for it. Having people tell me what needs to happen or how to go about it without me asking is like asking to be met with a brick wall opposition.
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  5. #15
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkavia View Post
    I understand where youre coming from. If there wasnt a shift in the ENFJs behavior I wouldnt be posting. Hes been giving him "the cold shoulder" for a while now and I dont know why. They've stopped having conversation deeper than how the weather is which is odd for both of them.

    The INTJ recently renounced our faith (my ENFJ friend is a VERY strong Christian) and Im wondering if that has anything to do with it.

    Honestly I dont know what to do. If I leave it alone I think it's going to get worse, but this INTJ is pretty scared to bring it up with him (Although I am in complete agreement with you Pitseleh that he should be the one to talk to him about it). Its doesnt come from stubbornness, its come from fear of disapproval from his brother.

    As an update I talked to the INTJ last night and expressed that I think he just needs to talk to him himself. He said he would but I dont know when or how he is going to do it. And looking back at experience he will most likely be too direct and make the ENFJ close up, become defensive, and nothing will change.

    Who knows though?
    Oh ok, I didn't know all that. If he's acting like what you are describing, then he might need a really hard kick of reality. Something is up with the ENFJ. As an ENFJ, it's a weird balance between wanting someone acknowledge my problems and wanting alone time to process my problems. I am not sure what to tell you. He might need some alone time to process his values but then at the same time, don't let him have time to brood too much either. If this happens, the benefits of initial reflections might be harbored with hard feelings.

    Maybe you can acknowledge how he is feeling and try to let him see that you understand where he's coming from and then you can slyly put in how you see the situation. For example, "hey John, it must be difficult that your brother and you can't see eye to eye...... even though you guys don't always get along, your brother loves you and wants to have a good relationship with you. " Key thing is to deal with him in a delicate manner and try hard not to put blame on him. After a subtle push, he will probably have an epiphany about his behavior.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Malkavia's Avatar
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    Thanks guys. I think time is the best solution for the matter.

    I hate getting in between these types of problems because I dont want to choose sides. When you have two parties confiding problems about the other party to you, its hard to know how much to reveal to the other person in order to try and make things right.

    Does anyone have any tips on being a good in-between person?

    As an ENFP its hard because Im normally so open about conflict and it seems like both of these types (or maybe because their siblings) arent. I think the sibling aspect throws a major wrench in most personality profiles.

    I just dont understand how my ENFJ friend can give up all of himself to someone he doesnt know, yet cannot let go a small piece of his time or pride to solve a small problem with someone he's close to.

  7. #17
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkavia View Post
    I just dont understand how my ENFJ friend can give up all of himself to someone he doesnt know, yet cannot let go a small piece of his time or pride to solve a small problem with someone he's close to.
    At the risk of just making up stuff - the relationship with his brother is already a far greater investment than helping some random person. Lo-o-o-o-ong history of decisions having been made. "Help" changes meaning.

    Don't say this too loud in front of either of them, but years from now, only one of them is going to be routinely hurt still. (Not "still hurting", because both will move on, but once the INTJ is out on his own and no longer undermined, ENFJ is going to have less and less chance to be boss as each year passes. And it's not going to be a matter of ruthlessness, it's just going to be a matter of who does and doesn't make "me" feel like shit.)


    Hm, probably not helping.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Arguing with my ENFJ mom is torturous. I have never once in 23 years been able to convince her of something she didn't want to be convinced about (and that's a lot of things).

  9. #19
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    At the risk of just making up stuff - the relationship with his brother is already a far greater investment than helping some random person. Lo-o-o-o-ong history of decisions having been made. "Help" changes meaning.

    Don't say this too loud in front of either of them, but years from now, only one of them is going to be routinely hurt still. (Not "still hurting", because both will move on, but once the INTJ is out on his own and no longer undermined, ENFJ is going to have less and less chance to be boss as each year passes. And it's not going to be a matter of ruthlessness, it's just going to be a matter of who does and doesn't make "me" feel like shit.)


    Hm, probably not helping.
    Who do you think will still hurt, the ENFJ?

  10. #20
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I don't think I'd even want to be involved in this kind of thing if it was between my own two children.

    The ENFJ is probably really freaking out about the faith thing and needs some time to mull it over, sort it out and put it in perspective. You might tell him that you have noticed that he seems bothered lately and offer to be a listening ear if he ever wants to talk about it and if he asks for advice, you could give him suggestions, but that's about as far as I'd want to get up in that.
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