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  1. #1
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Default Fi and guilt/manipulation

    So this is actually a pretty serious thread for me-I'd really appreciate any thoughts you guys can give....

    My Fi is kinda defunct. I dont use it often to connect with others and I shield it pretty heavily from the world.

    I grew up in a fairly turbulent-although not physically abusive to me-household. Lots of yelling, fighting, spousal abuse, stepdads in and out all the time, moving all over the place when the rent was due. I guess when small they would find me hidden in places crying-under the bed, in closets, in dresser drawers. When very little I guess all of this chaos would overload the little bits of Fi processing capabilities that little Fi users come with. As soon as I was old enough-ie 4-I would escape outside and play alone.

    By the time I was six I was able to totally quell and block emotion and pain-using Te I'd imagine or maybe an Fe shadow wall. I felt nothing, nothing upset me.

    As I grew older my mom and sister would very often use emotional guilt to get me to help them-money, getting them out of jail or whatever. I call it "plucking the Fi strings"-making me mirror their emotional pain, so I would feel obligated to help them. So I learned to ignore their pain altogether. I learned to judge them, most other people, (and myself) pretty harshly with Te-did they act wisely, logically and did they learn from their own past mistakes? If no, then I did not help them or forgive them. And I felt no guilt at all. This is a real harsh worldview, especially for an ENFP.

    I think I may be overly harsh on others sometimes, so I'd like to understand how to be more gentle in my evaluations of others, when it is okay to feel their pain vs when it is okay to ignore it and hold them responsible for what they have done....

    So questions:

    How do you chose who to help?
    How do you respond to emotional guilt from others?
    How do you evaluate their own level of responsibility for their situations?
    Do you find others trying to use your emotional sensitivity against you? Are they doing so intentionally or more subconsciously?

    and any other thoughts or comments...thanks!

  2. #2
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    I grew up in a turbulent background too. Having my father not being there to physically protect me from the abusive environment, and watching my mom go through the court system as well for it. I get where you're coming from with the Te.

    Who do I choose to help? Maybe it's a fault of mine, but:
    -Those who I see get picked on. (I know it's not my business, I can't help it)

    -Those who come asking for it.
    -Friends, family

    .. Basically, if someone sincerely comes for help, I help, especially if it's one of those been there, done that situations, and a basic part of being human.

    How do I evaluate their level of responsibility? I may get fed up of trying to be there and help, but since my door's usually open, I tend to just watch them change on their own time. I can't really evaluate their responsibility. Sometimes, it takes people a few times to make the same mistakes over and over until they actually 'learn.' People only change when they want to.

    How do I respond to emotional guilt? I don't. I don't deal with passive aggressiveness. I'll tell them head on, and leave it at that.

    Do people use my sensitivity against me? Heck yah. I see it as not owning up to our own behavior/self-projecting by putting others down just to make oneself feel better. "You're too sensitive" when spoken by someone who mistreats others is just another cover up, I think, especially when we look at what they say and what their behaviors are objectively in relation to the other party's, especially when there's malice involved. Basic Freudian. lol

    JMO.

  3. #3
    Senior Member gigi_xo's Avatar
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    How do you chose who to help?
    However would help me. whoever seems like a good person. who ever did not hurt me. If helping them will get me somewhere... (I'm a 4w3 or 3w4 please remember so I'm not going to help someone if they wont reciprocate or become very loyal or be a good candidate for good friendship...)

    How do you respond to emotional guilt from others?
    I feel entirely horrible and cant handle it.

    How do you evaluate their own level of responsibility for their situations?
    Depends on their sincerity and the facts of their situations. It depends on my own biased views of the person. it depends on my own biased views on their situation

    Do you find others trying to use your emotional sensitivity against you? Are they doing so intentionally or more subconsciously?

    They are usually very bad at it, because if its sincere i cant handle it. if its manipulative, I manipulate it back.

    I dont know if they're being intentinial, but I certainly am.

    manipulate with Fi, get where you want with Te.

    this is only in the coldest of cases, of course.

    generally, itd be wonderful if we could all just love one another & get along. is that so wrong?
    I live my life for the stars that shine & people say its just a waste of time- Oasis

    Extroverted (E) 65.63% Introverted (I) 34.38%
    Intuitive (N) 89.31% Sensing (S) 10.69%
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  4. #4
    Senior Member gigi_xo's Avatar
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    How do you chose who to help?
    However would help me. whoever seems like a good person. who ever did not hurt me. If helping them will get me somewhere... (I'm a 4w3 or 3w4 please remember so I'm not going to help someone if they wont reciprocate or become very loyal or be a good candidate for good friendship...)

    How do you respond to emotional guilt from others?
    I feel entirely horrible and cant handle it.

    How do you evaluate their own level of responsibility for their situations?
    Depends on their sincerity and the facts of their situations. It depends on my own biased views of the person. it depends on my own biased views on their situation

    Do you find others trying to use your emotional sensitivity against you? Are they doing so intentionally or more subconsciously?

    They are usually very bad at it, because if its sincere i cant handle it. if its manipulative, I manipulate it back.

    I dont know if they're being intentinial, but I certainly am.

    manipulate with Fi, get where you want with Te.

    this is only in the coldest of cases, of course.

    generally, itd be wonderful if we could all just love one another & get along. is that so wrong?
    I live my life for the stars that shine & people say its just a waste of time- Oasis

    Extroverted (E) 65.63% Introverted (I) 34.38%
    Intuitive (N) 89.31% Sensing (S) 10.69%
    Feeling (F) 74.29% Thinking (T) 25.71%
    Perceiving (P) 74.19% Judging (J) 25.81%


    3w4

  5. #5
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    How do you chose who to help?
    whoever is going to use my help with the intention of eventually getting to where they can help themself.

    How do you respond to emotional guilt from others?
    i humor them. fake it until a point of them really getting comfortable/confident doing it then blow them away one day when they need it to work the most by doing a 180 on'm.

    How do you evaluate their own level of responsibility for their situations?
    with what i gather from my senses. reality.

    Do you find others trying to use your emotional sensitivity against you?
    i think it's human nature for people to do that.

    Are they doing so intentionally or more subconsciously?
    depends. the ones doing it subconsciously get a pass to an extent because they will find out what they are/were doing in a hurry using the recipe from question #2. i most certainly can spot the difference quickly. honestly, it's almost a bore when people try to pull that intentionally.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  6. #6
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I am easily manipulated by ones I love, i.e I am a pushover, le sigh.

    I refuse and do not engage in manipulative tactics to make people do what I want, ewwww, just fucking ewwwww.

    I feel guilty, A LOT.

    Like, a lot, a lot.

    I don't think there are ever long periods of time where I do not feel guilty.

    On a relatively constant basis, I feel as though I am letting myself, the people I love, and the world, and my "purpose for existence" down. :sad:
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  7. #7
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    "I think I may be overly harsh on others sometimes, so I'd like to understand how to be more gentle in my evaluations of others, when it is okay to feel their pain vs when it is okay to ignore it and hold them responsible for what they have done...."

    Hmm. I sympathize. All the important people in my childhood have betrayed me in some way and I am angry at all of them, though I don't show it. I just physically and emotionally distant myself and I have this inability to rely on another person.

    How do you choose who to help? There is a separation between emotionally and physically helping. Financial help is physical. If it is a family or close friend, once the trust is gone, I can't emotionally help them. But since we have history and they were once there for me or whatever, I could financially help them out once or twice, but make it known that it will be the last time and that I would be ending any obligations I have due to them not being logical/healthy. If it is a mental disorder, you know, financial help would extend. But I couldn't be emotionally tangled up with people I don't trust and who have betrayed and hurt me. I don't forgive (and I have good reasons). It doesn't matter if they are a family member or a friend. A family is only a family if there is the 'act' of being a family, same with friends.

    How do you respond to emotional guilt from others? From my mother (unhealthy ENFJ) I get loads and loads of it. It may be why I am quite rebellious toward anything she approves of. Well, mostly we just have different perspectives and judgments because of different culture and time period. I respond by geographically moving myself so far away that she can only talk to me over the phone for most of the year and over the phone, she can't emotionally guilt me in an abusive way. I show sympathy toward her because she does try her best and when she is being reasonable, but not in a way that would change how I want to pursue my life. I generally just try to ignore it if it is unhealthy for me. If my friend wants a favor and I have calculated that they have done favors for me in the past of such length, then I will do it even if they asked me in a emotionally manipulative way. But if they didn't do anything for me in the past, then it's a flat out no. I only trek when they have trekked for me.

    How do you evaluate their own level of responsibility for their situations? Everyone have a HIGH level of responsibility toward their own situations. I understand that people make mistakes, even cruel ones, but it is only okay if they are trying to and have overcome it and it is evident that they are not bullshitting. I emphasize the HIGH.

    Do you find others trying to use your emotional sensitivity against you? Are they doing so intentionally or more subconsciously? I don't know, to be honest. When I was younger, I was a very gentle little creature and they trampled all over me so I have grown horns, as I like to put it. I think that's a common problem with Fi dominant ones who when underdeveloped was stuck up in clouds and don't notice the chaos and when they do, they are deeply traumatized for a couple of years and then their Te balances them out during their early adult years.

    I don't know if that is helpful to you. I am trying to figure this out too. I embrace justice and consequences.

  8. #8
    Member Illict91's Avatar
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    How do you chose who to help?
    People that I am associated with closely and who are likely to affect me with/without my help i.e family, university and work colleagues on a particular group project.
    I enjoy teaching and providing people with knowledge as it comes easily, so assisting others in learning and how to do things would be a definite.
    If I can't genuinely help someone or they are likely to cause me pain, I stay the hell away from them.

    How do you respond to emotional guilt from others?
    I keep saying "no" "no" "no" if I refuse to do the request and confront them if they persist.
    If I don't mind the request I will be forward with them usually, by saying "You don't need to manipulate me in order to help you"
    I have a strict intolerance towards manipulation/guilt of any form, people in my life are very aware of that.
    I do not feel personal guilt, if I know the situation is out of my responsibility.

    How do you evaluate their own level of responsibility for their situations?
    It's quite simple. If they caused the problem first-hand, their tough luck in getting out of it. Whilst I try to help if it is necessary to do so, if they didn't make genuine attempts to get out of the situation, the responsibility burden is further placed on them.

    Do you find others trying to use your emotional sensitivity against you? Are they doing so intentionally or more subconsciously?
    It happens to everyone. It is a mixture of conscious actions and unknown habits, people will have learnt to get help in such a way that after a while it becomes a habit when asking others.
    In my own experiences, people that know me well are aware that they can only appeal to me through the facts.

    All the answers above are perhaps due to an inferior Fi . . . . . .
    ENTJ

    Te > Ni > Ti > Se = Si > Fe > Ne > Fi

  9. #9
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    {edited out way more sharing than i like}

    questions....
    um...i help who i can and when i can if i think my helping is what they need
    i feel guilty when i don't respond lovingly to someone who deserves it...no one else can make me feel that but myself..
    i don't have a lot of experience with someone asking for help but i can say...i had no sympathy for my sister when she became addicted to pain pills and wanted the ones the dentist gave me...if that's applicable i don't know but i said no even though i never took them.
    and no...i don't have much experience with manipulative people or anyone really asking me for much.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  10. #10
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    So questions:

    How do you chose who to help?
    How do you respond to emotional guilt from others?
    How do you evaluate their own level of responsibility for their situations?
    Do you find others trying to use your emotional sensitivity against you? Are they doing so intentionally or more subconsciously?

    and any other thoughts or comments...thanks!
    i don't know why i was the way i was as a child, but i can relate to the keeping your feelings to yourself bit. i think i was just very out of touch with my feelings and when they came they came strong and i got completely lost in them. i used to self-soothe.

    - i'll try to help anyone who doesn't seem to be a threat to me. when i notice i am not helping, i back down.

    - i used to take it very much to heart. i still do... but i go through it using thinking now. i don't wallow in it/ internalize as much as i used to.

    - using common sense. i can try to help someone help themselves (and i can try to be kind), but that's all i can do.

    - yes, i think people do... but i don't think they do it to hurt me. either they're hurting themselves, or are trying to help, or i don't know... just don't realize they're doing it. it hurts a lot, though. when this happens i'll "protect the lake". if a person has done this to me and i have tried to express my hurt and if they don't care, i shut myself off from that person for self-protection.

    i'm sorry for your experiences.
    Enneagram 5w4.

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