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[Fi] Need to Fi

yvonne

A passer by
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Mar 1, 2010
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534
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INfP
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^ yeah, i've noticed the consistency thing. they need you to make sense and be real and true... (don't suffer fools gladly)... i think we have a lot in common, INFPs and INTJs, as well. i'm oblivious when it comes to Ni, though. i will be gentle.

i really appreciate their logic and confidence.

i wish i could help you more with Fi... i suppose for me, as i'm not a strong F and i think still probably know Fe better... it's just taking the plunge... even though it might scare you to go there, exploring your feelings, it's like a revelation.
 

Billy

Crazy Diamond
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,192
MBTI Type
INFJ
How does this work?

Fe is extroverted feeling, I need other people for that to work, and through my connection with them I discover the nature of my own feelings, although at times it can also mask my feelings. Which in turn I figure out as things dont mesh, and then I kind of go, well thats not what I want/feel so I know what I DONT want/dont feel.
 

Uytuun

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Apr 19, 2008
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nnnn
For me my maps and understanding are created through others. I enjoy this with this person. This person can get me to let go, this person can get my to open up, this person can create this drive in me, this person causes me to face my fears, this person can make me think. Its like a proxy.


Fe is extroverted feeling, I need other people for that to work, and through my connection with them I discover the nature of my own feelings, although at times it can also mask my feelings. Which in turn I figure out as things dont mesh, and then I kind of go, well thats not what I want/feel so I know what I DONT want/dont feel.

Maps and understanding of yourself? How much of the other person is part of the map?

How would you define your "own feelings"? Are they still a function of Fe or do they wander into something more Fi-like?
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
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Feb 9, 2010
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Maps and understanding of yourself? How much of the other person is part of the map?

How would you define your "own feelings"? Are they still a function of Fe or do they wander into something more Fi-like?

When I hear Fe-people talking like this, I try to use Te as an analogy. It's a very incomplete analogy, but it's a start.

With Te, we know what is true and isn't by verifying it with our world around us, all the time. So, analogously, Fe knows that "feelings are true" by verifying them with the world around, namely by interacting with others.

That ends up sounding alien to Fi-ers like us, because our feelings seem to happen all by themselves, mostly unaffected by other people.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

failure to thrive
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When I am with people I feel, i know what they feel, we all feel and flow through each other.

When I am alone its not so easy... I feel but i cant figure out what, or how or why.

Put someone emotional in front of me and I will map out what and why they feel the way they do. And yet I cannot do the same for myself.

I feel like an emotional vampire.

How do you develop Fi? What are some exercises?

Hi, Billy--

I like Uumlau's lake metaphor. I would like to add to it, if I may. Take it for what you will.

I think when we start out as Fe aux's, we are a depression in the ground with little water in us. Rivulets develop first, then streams, and finally rivers as love and interest in people expands, which is Fe. As we do this, our lake of Fi fills up, and when we take a moment to consider it, we realize that we have developed some very real ideals and values about things that we didn't start off with.

I believe it is what we discover through our experiences with Fe, predominantly (to use typology lingo, not saying we just live in some sort of Ni/Fe box, of course), that turns into Fi; what we feel strongly about. I noticed I started having all these Fi cementations in my 20's and 30
s. They resulted from the experiences I had dealing with people, my friends, and family, and acquaintances, etc. (Fe) If I discovered through Fe that my loved ones responded well to "x" behavior or treatment, over time I internalized "x" behavior or treatment, and attached deep meaning to it, as good or bad; how I felt about "x".

In the beginning, (18-25) as you describe, I did not necessarily have any opinion about "x" behavior. My Fe endeavors and intentions led me to understand my core values.

I think Fi doms have a lifetime of developing their core values, and judging behavior with them. But, for us, the fluid nature of Fe, combined with our Ni, gives us our core values, and this occurs over time.

I wouldn't worry about 'developing' anything in MBTI terms. What if MBTI is wrong, totally wrong? *shudder* :) We really have very little understanding of how functions work in us and others. Just follow your intuition, and live your life as fully as possible, and when you are older, you will look back and be able to see how much you have grown.
 

Uytuun

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When I hear Fe-people talking like this, I try to use Te as an analogy. It's a very incomplete analogy, but it's a start.

With Te, we know what is true and isn't by verifying it with our world around us, all the time. So, analogously, Fe knows that "feelings are true" by verifying them with the world around, namely by interacting with others.

That ends up sounding alien to Fi-ers like us, because our feelings seem to happen all by themselves, mostly unaffected by other people.

Yes, I agree, Te-Fe and Fi-Ti are useful analogies.

That makes sense.

I use interaction to gauge the other person's feelings and express mine, but in itself it doesn't alter the truth of my feelings. That's not to say that it can't make me happy or sad, it very much can, it just doesn't change the core feeling, it changes the way I feel about the core feeling, I guess.
 

Poki

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When I hear Fe-people talking like this, I try to use Te as an analogy. It's a very incomplete analogy, but it's a start.

With Te, we know what is true and isn't by verifying it with our world around us, all the time. So, analogously, Fe knows that "feelings are true" by verifying them with the world around, namely by interacting with others.

That ends up sounding alien to Fi-ers like us, because our feelings seem to happen all by themselves, mostly unaffected by other people.

Fi from what I have seen is still affected by others, but you take control of it more then I think Fe does. My lake has always been full and I have not had to do much at all to fill it. This allows me to always live in the moment and enjoy life. I dont know what exactly it is I do, or what it is about others. My Fe categorization sucks in this manner. Somehow my lake is always full, the streams are always changing as people come and go into and out of my life. I really dont understand at all:blush: I would fall into the category of an ESTP that has never really had to learn how to find and/or maintain these streams.
 

cascadeco

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I am not worried per say, so much as I am annoyed by my lack of knowing where I stand on certain things.

I guess if I think about it, at times I have been kind of *perplexed* at the fact that I don't have strong opinions/feelings about many things, but honestly I think it's more a case of my thinking I 'should' have a solid opinion on something. In reality, in recent years, I've kind of just accepted that I'm someone who, while I have solid core beliefs and thoughts on a handful of key things, for the majority of issues I simply don't have an unchanging belief: The nature of how I process things and view the world is such that I value my ability to change perspective. I also value the fact that when it comes to many topics, I don't feel I am in a position to have a solid opinion, because of the complexity of the issue and the fact that there are so many sides/perspectives.... the bigger the issue, the more data, etc, I'm going to be noncommital. I don't think that has to be inherently a BAD thing. So, there's that. Yes, there's a negative consequence to this tendency, but that's just one side of the coin. It has its positives as well.

--------

Re. feelings/emotions and recognizing/identifying them within yourself, I can't say I relate entirely to what you're describing, as I feel I now have a pretty solid handle on my emotional state and the why's behind my various emotions. It is probably due to the fact that I'm extremely analytical and am always trying to figure out the reasons for why I think or feel or react the way, and I especially like to 'solve' for any negative emotions I'm experiencing, and to effectively do so means really digging deeply and getting to the foundation/root problem. The first time I really plunged deeply into the self-analysis was my early or mid 20's, and it was prompted by a desire for working through some of my issues and problems that I was experiencing at the time. So, I dunno... I guess if you're wanting to improve your own emotional awareness start trying to ask 'why' and 'what' and all of those questions like that.... not the most pleasant process sometimes but I tend to do that.
 

Billy

Crazy Diamond
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
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1,192
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Maps and understanding of yourself? How much of the other person is part of the map?

How would you define your "own feelings"? Are they still a function of Fe or do they wander into something more Fi-like?

Think of my feelings like a game of battle ship.
I dont know thier shape or size, and we gotta keep tossing out those little white pegs until we get a hit. Then we put a red one, and we keep going and guessing around them until we map them out. I need other players though to help me figure it out tho.
 

Poki

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I guess if I think about it, at times I have been kind of *perplexed* at the fact that I don't have strong opinions/feelings about many things, but honestly I think it's more a case of my thinking I 'should' have a solid opinion on something. In reality, in recent years, I've kind of just accepted that I'm someone who, while I have solid core beliefs and thoughts on a handful of key things, for the majority of issues I simply don't have an unchanging belief: The nature of how I process things and view the world is such that I value my ability to change perspective. I also value the fact that when it comes to many topics, I don't feel I am in a position to have a solid opinion, because of the complexity of the issue and the fact that there are so many sides/perspectives.... the bigger the issue, the more data, etc, I'm going to be noncommital. I don't think that has to be inherently a BAD thing. So, there's that. Yes, there's a negative consequence to this tendency, but that's just one side of the coin. It has its positives as well.

--------

Re. feelings/emotions and recognizing/identifying them within yourself, I can't say I relate entirely to what you're describing, as I feel I now have a pretty solid handle on my emotional state and the why's behind my various emotions. It is probably due to the fact that I'm extremely analytical and am always trying to figure out the reasons for why I think or feel or react the way, and I especially like to 'solve' for any negative emotions I'm experiencing, and to effectively do so means really digging deeply and getting to the foundation/root problem. The first time I really plunged deeply into the self-analysis was my early or mid 20's, and it was prompted by a desire for working through some of my issues and problems that I was experiencing at the time. So, I dunno... I guess if you're wanting to improve your own emotional awareness start trying to ask 'why' and 'what' and all of those questions like that.... not the most pleasant process sometimes but I tend to do that.

:yes:
 

Juni

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Mar 23, 2010
Messages
84
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INFx
INFJ or INFP? a closer look

Go to the drop down menu at the top and click on "Interview about feeling differences."

You are not alone in the way you are. It is just your INFJness coming out.

I am INFP but borderline INFJ.

It sounds like you respond to the emotions of others and do so very well. That is a strength. But when you are alone, you don't know what to feel.

To get more in touch with Fi, you just have to look back at moments in your life, no matter how mundane or life changing they were, and think about how YOU felt about them.

I don't know how to explain it well, but you have to put yourself in the place of others. You gave an example of your father's infidelity and that you won't do that because it hurt your mother deeply. Go back. Imagine you are your mother. Feel what she felt. Imagine it happened to you.

Then watch a movie... something that takes you on an emotional roller coaster (Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind perhaps). Imagine yourself as both main characters, feel what they feel. Don't "respond", but "BE" them. Don't try to mimic their emotions, feel whatever is natural for you if you were put in those situations.

That being said, I don't think Fi can be taught and learned, but it can be practiced.
 

sculpting

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Jan 28, 2009
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4,148
so can I ask you guys a question about Fi?

I can do the emotional mirroring innately-very strongly actually with animals or people, accutely painfully so.
I place myself in other people's shoes all the time.
But in the past I did not typically use Fi to make decisions-I use Te to logically find the correct path.

This left me in a bind yesterday. I got my feelings hurt. Yet I felt I deserved it based upon my past, thus it was okay for the other person to hurt me. I cannot forgive myself for anything, yet I forgive others for everything.

^This is logically incorrect. I can rationalize that this makes no sense. Yet it doesnt change the way I feel or change the guilt I carry, alter the sense that I am flawed in someway and the sense of self criticism as I cant forgive myself. So I sort of spent this last day pondering the issue-not only is it logically flawed-it felt emotionally flawed, emotionally discordant in some way. So I just kept "feeling" at it and then the pieces all sorta clicked.

Today it is totally okay to forgive myself. God this seems stupid-trivial. This is obvious. Yet yesterday it wasnt okay to forgive myself. Did I just develop an Fi rule of some sort?
 

yvonne

A passer by
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are you saying you have some past issues you haven't forgiven yourself for?
 

sculpting

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pretty much anything I ever do that hurts another person I carry a lot of guilt for. This means I very rarely hurt people actually, at least intentionally. Very, very rarely.

But yeah when I do, it is really bad, lots of guilt, remorse, self blame-I judge myself exceptionally harshly. I cant forgive myself. So if those people hurt me, it seems deserved, even if logically that makes no sense.
 

Poki

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so can I ask you guys a question about Fi?

I can do the emotional mirroring innately-very strongly actually with animals or people, accutely painfully so.
I place myself in other people's shoes all the time.
But in the past I did not typically use Fi to make decisions-I use Te to logically find the correct path.

This left me in a bind yesterday. I got my feelings hurt. Yet I felt I deserved it based upon my past, thus it was okay for the other person to hurt me. I cannot forgive myself for anything, yet I forgive others for everything.

^This is logically incorrect. I can rationalize that this makes no sense. Yet it doesnt change the way I feel or change the guilt I carry, alter the sense that I am flawed in someway and the sense of self criticism as I cant forgive myself. So I sort of spent this last day pondering the issue-not only is it logically flawed-it felt emotionally flawed, emotionally discordant in some way. So I just kept "feeling" at it and then the pieces all sorta clicked.

Today it is totally okay to forgive myself. God this seems stupid-trivial. This is obvious. Yet yesterday it wasnt okay to forgive myself. Did I just develop an Fi rule of some sort?

I think you are learning to use a Fi to judge things internally as opposed to looking at all the details in a logical fashion. I dont think its a rule, but allowing yourself to look at things in a different way. Can I ask you if these pieces all clicking by feeling it out is also logically correct once more pieces were added to the puzzle?
 

yvonne

A passer by
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5w4
pretty much anything I ever do that hurts another person I carry a lot of guilt for. This means I very rarely hurt people actually, at least intentionally. Very, very rarely.

But yeah when I do, it is really bad, lots of guilt, remorse, self blame-I judge myself exceptionally harshly. I cant forgive myself. So if those people hurt me, it seems deserved, even if logically that makes no sense.

you must be a really nice person :)

in life we can't really help hurting others and getting hurt, though. even if we don't want to hurt people, because we're different and don't always understand each other... it happens. all you can do really is apologizing and forgiving... and trying not to make the same mistakes again. guilt is a difficult feeling and if you carry it around it will just get you down.

it's ok to make mistakes sometimes. we all do that.
 

sculpting

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you must be a really nice person :)

in life we can't really help hurting others and getting hurt, though. even if we don't want to hurt people, because we're different and don't always understand each other... it happens. all you can do really is apologizing and forgiving... and trying not to make the same mistakes again. guilt is a difficult feeling and if you carry it around it will just get you down.

it's ok to make mistakes sometimes. we all do that.

You know-it sort of looks that way I guess-that I am nice. But I dont establish deep emo connections typically so the hurts I inflict are typically unintentional or not of deep significance. I think if I attached more deeply, I would have hurt more people in life.

I think you are learning to use a Fi to judge things internally as opposed to looking at all the details in a logical fashion. I dont think its a rule, but allowing yourself to look at things in a different way. Can I ask you if these pieces all clicking by feeling it out is also logically correct once more pieces were added to the puzzle?

So-the super Fi users-like Udog-say that Fi isnt simply emotion but using the way you feel to decide things.

It is "judging" thus would it not be a rule? It sort of feels that way-like I pondered, felt, then decided but not logically. I can easily see situations where the "feeling" Fi answer would contradict the logical Te answer. (This is sooooo weird poki. Like doing math with blobs of pudding instead of apples. Look-one handful of pudding plus another handful of pudding equals a squishy pudding blob but some of it fell on the floor. :) But it is all good anyways)
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
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so can I ask you guys a question about Fi?

I can do the emotional mirroring innately-very strongly actually with animals or people, accutely painfully so.
I place myself in other people's shoes all the time.
But in the past I did not typically use Fi to make decisions-I use Te to logically find the correct path.

This left me in a bind yesterday. I got my feelings hurt. Yet I felt I deserved it based upon my past, thus it was okay for the other person to hurt me. I cannot forgive myself for anything, yet I forgive others for everything.

^This is logically incorrect. I can rationalize that this makes no sense. Yet it doesnt change the way I feel or change the guilt I carry, alter the sense that I am flawed in someway and the sense of self criticism as I cant forgive myself. So I sort of spent this last day pondering the issue-not only is it logically flawed-it felt emotionally flawed, emotionally discordant in some way. So I just kept "feeling" at it and then the pieces all sorta clicked.

Today it is totally okay to forgive myself. God this seems stupid-trivial. This is obvious. Yet yesterday it wasnt okay to forgive myself. Did I just develop an Fi rule of some sort?

Possibly, or it's just Fi being Fi ... whimsical.

I think of Te as being about making precise and analytical decisions. Some of the decisions are big and far-reaching, but always made for very particular reasons.

Fi is about deciding who you are, what your attitude is. Fe with the streams has all sorts of possible adjustments that can be made with a fairly high degree of precision, like Te.

The Fi lake does not admit as much control, and tends to do its own thing. It is possible, however, to choose to make the waters warmer or colder, to rise or fall; to make the lake deeper or shallower; to let the waters rise over the banks and flood the streams. All of this is doable, but it means making a decision about what kind of attitude one wishes to evoke, choosing what kind of person you are, choosing what kind of person you want to become.

Big. Life changing. Decisions.

There are a couple of rules that will help you to forgive yourself. One is to not give a damn about others' feelings. Another is to love yourself, as well as others.

In your case, I doubt you made a conscious decision, otherwise you would have said so, so I suspect your forgiving of yourself is just the whimsy of Fi, that feelings have played out, and no longer torment you.

If you'd like a rule, I've tried both the "not give a damn" and "love yourself" rules, and recommend the latter. The same love, caring, respect and responsibility that you feel for others, especially when you mirror them, express all of that toward yourself, too. You don't tell yourself to stop feeling guilty (Fi won't listen to you), but rather you process it, let yourself know and understand it, but you don't let the feeling torture you, because that is not loving. Focus on being the kind of person you want to be, using the guilt as constructive criticism instead of as punishment.
 

Poki

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You know-it sort of looks that way I guess-that I am nice. But I dont establish deep emo connections typically so the hurts I inflict are typically unintentional or not of deep significance. I think if I attached more deeply, I would have hurt more people in life.



So-the super Fi users-like Udog-say that Fi isnt simply emotion but using the way you feel to decide things.

It is "judging" thus would it not be a rule? It sort of feels that way-like I pondered, felt, then decided but not logically. I can easily see situations where the "feeling" Fi answer would contradict the logical Te answer. (This is sooooo weird poki. Like doing math with blobs of pudding instead of apples. Look-one handful of pudding plus another handful of pudding equals a squishy pudding blob but some of it fell on the floor. :) But it is all good anyways)

For me its not a rule, but a current understanding based on the pieces. I have always seen Fi as an understanding. To bring this to logic, even if I make a decision it is layered with all these other situations that could logically change things, but I stick with my current understanding and allow these other layers to just kinda float around as possibilities so its not really a hard set rule. This to me is my openness or fuzziness in regards to Ti. Each layer or possibility has hard set logic but I can switch and move between these layers. Its nothing hard set as a rule and more data can sway it if it fits into the puzzle at anytime. I try to control this data so its not so one sided though. This is how I keep my openness.
 

sculpting

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There are a couple of rules that will help you to forgive yourself. One is to not give a damn about others' feelings. Another is to love yourself, as well as others.

In your case, I doubt you made a conscious decision, otherwise you would have said so, so I suspect your forgiving of yourself is just the whimsy of Fi, that feelings have played out, and no longer torment you.

I can choose to not give a damn about others opinions-but never their feelings-unless I am doing something that may hurt in the short term but will be better for them in the long term. To hurt with no reason has never been okay-even for my puny Fi.

The love yourself though-this is weird as I have a great deal of self respect and self esteem. But there is something real odd about NeFiTe. The Fi has to judge the action for me in this case-the intentional hurting of another. Normally almost all other stuff gets judged with Te. But Fi is so puny, so ill refined, that it cant give a well resolved answer. It just says "BAD", no matter what the justification. Then it pulls out the Te machine of punishment and accountability. Like this:

Fi: mirror perceived hurt of another-BAD
Te: Well okay if you say so, even though it looks like logically this was really not the end of the world, and you can probably forgive yourself for this one. Was it really that big of a deal?
Fi: mirror perceived hurt of another-EEEEVVVVIIILLLL
Te: Well since you were evil, you should be chained in a basement and never released to interact with other humans you horrible monster. (while rolling eyes...)

this felt different-like Fi kinda of recrunched the math because the feelings didnt make any sense-the actual feelings were in disagreement. I dunno... I'll keep on feeling.

(This could take forever.)

EDIT: The others are always loved more than me. I put others before myself. It seems to be an Fi rule of some sort.
 
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