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  1. #41
    Senior Member something boring's Avatar
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    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.................. Thank you for the clarification. That makes sense.
    Last edited by something boring; 03-15-2009 at 02:47 AM. Reason: details and afterthoughts.
    "Don�t ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive, and go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." - Howard Thurman


    [SIGPIC]http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l110/evillinclinations/fortune45.gif[/SIGPIC]

    ...and yes, I'm still on about that...






  2. #42
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by something boring View Post
    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.................. Thank you for the clarification. That makes sense.
    Thangu bery mutch!








    And no one will ever notice the tiny piece of disinformation I included--Mwuh HAHAHA! Oh, whoops... is this thing still on?

  3. #43
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    you write very cleanly. do tell more about your perceptions of si vs se. se is both intj and infj inferior, what do you think about its usage in such types?

  4. #44
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    An example of my perception of introverted sensing:

    Sitting here now I can very vividly recall the sensory experience of my swim this morning. I've been trying to teach myself a couple different swim techniques attempting to increase the efficiency of my movement through the water. I internalize every swim session so that I can reflect on it and get some ideas of what to try differently next time so that I can continue to improve.

    I walk up to the edge of the pool and dip my toes in to test the temperature - hmm it's cold this morning! I stand still at the edge waiting for the courage to hit me to just jump in, and the next thing I know I'm in mid air and it's too late to turn back now. The temperature drop steals my breath away and my body shivers for a bit.

    I start out with a deep breath and a push off the wall. I feel my hands slice through the fluid medium guiding my body through the same line. To get used to the feeling of the water my first goal is to achieve perfect balance. This requires me to find a body position where my body is aligned and staying afloat requires very little movement. My body quickly finds this familiar position, and I'm floating on my back breathing shallowly and completely relaxed.

    Once I have my body aligned and internalize the sensation of this position, I'm ready to start moving. I extend my arm into the water out in front of me and roll my entire body with it in the same movement and I start the glide. I shoot my opposite hand into the water out in front of me in the same way, and roll my body to that side. Just before my hand enters the water, I feel the water resistance with the arm already in the water and literally pull myself through and it passes out by my hip.

    And the stroke goes on. I change the tempo and my body position on the fly and take note of how the water drags over every inch of my skin. I find this beautifully hypnotic rhythm and fall into a trance as I glide from one end to the other with as little effort as possible. My breathing gets faster and deeper as my muscles fatigue but I have to fight hard to ignore this sensation because I don't want to lose my rhythm.

    My perception of time ceases to exist. In this state, I experience time only as singular moments that pass by as soon as my next movement changes my physical sensation. I finally stop due to physical exhaustion and inability to maintain balance, and realize that 45 minutes has just passed by.


    I have the entire experience internalized, but it's mostly in the form of images and sensations. It took enough time to put that much above into words, but I think it gives some good insight.

  5. #45
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    you write very cleanly. do tell more about your perceptions of si vs se. se is both intj and infj inferior, what do you think about its usage in such types?
    We're talking some about it here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ic-places.html

    (And what Phoenity just said seems to dovetail nicely with that INTJ discussion.)



    Also... but Phoe, your description above (and given your starsign of ISTP), is that Se recalled or actual Si? It reads a lot like what I suppose Se to be.


    EDIT: also, as an addendum, does anyone else find it difficult to give a complement to other Se users? Tell an ENXJ, "Wow, you're beautiful!" and the answer will be either:

    "I'm not beautiful"

    or

    "Yes, I rule!"

    Maybe it's just for tertiary and inferior Se users.

    In recent forum times, it was Poki I first saw mention that Se looks to Si for interaction.

    And as a broad generalisation, it's beginning to look to me that, for perceiving functions, i/e opposites attract, while for judging functions, i/e opposites repel.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    We're talking some about it here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ic-places.html

    (And what Phoenity just said seems to dovetail nicely with that INTJ discussion.)



    Also... but Phoe, your description above (and given your starsign of ISTP), is that Se recalled or actual Si? It reads a lot like what I suppose Se to be.


    EDIT: also, as an addendum, does anyone else find it difficult to give a complement to other Se users? Tell an ENXJ, "Wow, you're beautiful!" and the answer will be either:

    "I'm not beautiful"

    or

    "Yes, I rule!"

    Maybe it's just for tertiary and inferior Se users.

    In recent forum times, it was Poki I first saw mention that Se looks to Si for interaction.

    And as a broad generalisation, it's beginning to look to me that, for perceiving functions, i/e opposites attract, while for judging functions, i/e opposites repel.
    I've actually been trying to figure that out myself.

    MBTI states that my auxiliary function is extraverted sensing, while Socionics states that one of my dominant functions is introverted sensing.

    I seem to identify with the Socionics definition of introverted sensing:

    Introverted sensing is associated with the ability to internalize sensations and to experience them in full detail.

    Introverted sensing focuses on tangible, direct (because external) connections (because introverted) between processes (because dynamic) happening in one time, i.e. the physical/sensual experience of interactions between objects. This leads to an awareness of internal tangible physical states and how various physical fluctuations or substances are directly transferred between objects, such as motion, temperature, or dirtiness. The awareness of these tangible physical processes consequently leads to an awareness of health, or an optimum balance with one's environment. The individual physical reaction to concrete surroundings is main way we perceive and define aesthetics, comfort, convenience, and pleasure.

    In contrast to , is related to following one's own needs instead of focusing on some externally-driven conception of what is necessary to acquire or achieve. So, whereas ego types feel capable to evaluate how justified others' preferences are, ego types will try to adjust to them in any way possible (given that it does not extremely affect their own comfort), wishing to minimize conflict.

    In contrast to , Si is about direct interaction and unity (or discord) with one's surroundings, rather than abstract process and causal links.

    1. Introverted sensing

    SLIs are naturally good at knowing what kinds of activities and stimuli will produce which sensations and physical states in themselves and the people around them. They are highly sensitive to sensations of internal discomfort and dissonance, or when someone or something is aesthetically out of place. They usually take quick action to remove the discomfort, dissonance, or misplacement so that things "feel right." They are attracted to material (concrete) objects which produce the "right" sensations and physical states, such as stereo systems which produce the best sounds or clothes that produce the best feelings either through their pleasant texture and ease of use or through their aesthetic appeal. They dislike it when others deny them of pleasurable material objects and can get quite possessive and territorial when claiming or re-claiming them.

    SLIs are skilled at recognizing and remembering their own and others' internal physical states and at imagining how different things would affect that state. When analyzing the behavior of themselves and others, they focus on these physical states and see them as determining much of a person's actions. They prefer to keep their lifestyle and living space simple and to avoid excessive, gaudy possessions and excessively complex living habits and duties. SLIs encourage those they care about to take the time to experience pleasurable and soothing sensations, avoid getting caught up in the hustle and bustle of everyday life, and to listen to their bodies and their sincere inner desires. They can be concerned with their own health and those they know.

    SLIs are drawn to situations which allow them to maximize these physical states and like to dwell on soothing, pleasurable sensations, or the enjoyment of physical motion. They often seek physical and manual involvement in work activities. SLIs prefer to get involved in business projects rather than sit back and let things happen on their own (weak Ni too). SLIs are adept at portraying excitement and disgust through their physical gestures.
    So my question to you, can you see the introverted sensing in the recalled experience I described above? It wasn't apparent to me before, but notice I only wrote about my direct experience and how it made me feel, and that I didn't include that I noticed external things, which would be Se, correct?

    Notice how the experience was only about me and my interaction with the water? I didn't include any details about other people in my environment or anything that may have happened externally, simply because they aren't things I noticed, didn't have any relevancy to the experience, and I simply didn't remember them.

    I could have told you that I noticed (Se) the female lifeguard watching me, and possibly only because she was quite attractive. Could she have been checking me out? I have no idea, and it didn't matter to me at the time, because I was completely immersed in my own personal experience.

    I guess the reason it may read like Se, is that my experience is made up of recalled personal physical sensations and internal images, rather than external objects or images which would be easier to recall and describe. The way I experience physical sensations is a million times more intense and dynamic than I could ever describe through language, but I certainly tried. The best way I know of that you would ever be able to experience my experience was if you were with me and I showed you how to do it yourself. I could show you how to balance and align your body in the water, I could show you how to feel the water, and over time with enough concentration you may learn to experience it the same way I do.

    Or maybe in the future when neuroscience advances to the point of being able to hook up my brain to a computer and record the electric impulses as I recall my experience, then other people could experience it internally.

  7. #47
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenity View Post
    So my question to you, can you see the introverted sensing in the recalled experience I described above? It wasn't apparent to me before, but notice I only wrote about my direct experience and how it made me feel, and that I didn't include that I noticed external things, which would be Se, correct?
    I believe so.

    Working off definitions, it looks totally like Se, and not Si.

    Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail.

    Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones.

    I suppose you could have been storing that data while swimming, and in your own mind comparing the sensations to previous sensations, but the way you wrote it was of someone not inside his head comparing memories, but of someone right there in the moment having the sensations. Facing outward.

    Dunno, though. Only you can say, really.


    We probably need a confirmed ISTJ and a confirmed ISTP to compare notes on what it is to spend 45 minutes in the pool. Because if we're relying on this INTJ to know what's what, we could be in for a long wait and a lot of waffle.


    Oh, EDIT to observe whoops: because you also say...

    Sitting here now I can very vividly recall the sensory experience of my swim this morning. I've been trying to teach myself a couple different swim techniques attempting to increase the efficiency of my movement through the water. I internalize every swim session so that I can reflect on it and get some ideas of what to try differently next time so that I can continue to improve.
    So, yep, I've definitely don't know which process is dominant for you.

    What I can say is the actual swim experience you describe sounds like something I can recognise, so I'm understanding it as something I can do to a limited extent, so I'm calling Se. The part about internalising every swim session is not something I recognise in myself.


    But hey, the feature of internalising the experience with a view to developing the skill, is that pure and simple Si in operation, or Se having fun in the pool and then running it through Ni for implications and future development?

    Oy vey, can we get a variety of sensors in to state some real understanding of these issues? I don't like being the one half-guessing some answers without knowing my half-guesses are right.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I believe so.

    Working off definitions, it looks totally like Se, and not Si.

    Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail.

    Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones.

    I suppose you could have been storing that data while swimming, and in your own mind comparing the sensations to previous sensations, but the way you wrote it was of someone not inside his head comparing memories, but of someone right there in the moment having the sensations. Facing outward.

    Dunno, though. Only you can say, really.


    We probably need a confirmed ISTJ and a confirmed ISTP to compare notes on what it is to spend 45 minutes in the pool. Because if we're relying on this INTJ to know what's what, we could be in for a long wait and a lot of waffle.


    Oh, EDIT to observe whoops: because you also say...



    So, yep, I've definitely don't know which process is dominant for you.

    What I can say is the actual swim experience you describe sounds like something I can recognise, so I'm understanding it as something I can do to a limited extent, so I'm calling Se. The part about internalising every swim session is not something I recognise in myself.


    But hey, the feature of internalising the experience with a view to developing the skill, is that pure and simple Si in operation, or Se having fun in the pool and then running it through Ni for implications and future development?

    Oy vey, can we get a variety of sensors in to state some real understanding of these issues? I don't like being the one half-guessing some answers without knowing my half-guesses are right.
    Yea, I really don't know. To me, it was simply a sensory experience that I thoroughly enjoyed, and do everytime.

    With regards to introversion and extroversion, I don't know, I give up on that part.

  9. #49
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    We have a muddy pool! The pool is muddied!

    (Chaotic Ps! Curse them!)

    Se is in the moment. Si is in the form of the memory of the moment.

    Someone prove me wrong!

  10. #50
    Senior Member something boring's Avatar
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    I can't prove you wrong, but I can give a wordy rant on my own experience.
    I spend a lot of my time in a dreamy, out-of-this world sort of haze, the very same one for as long as I can remember. Outside my own head, I notice (what I would like to think is) most of the sounds and movements that take place near me, and maybe some other things that seem relevant, or perhaps interesting. I notice other people, their moods and most or all of their actions rather acutely (which is tiring), but to be brutally honest, there are days when I arrive at work and I am surprised to see what shirt I am wearing, because that sort of thing isn't high on my priority list. Provided it reaches at least the standard I'd specify, who really cares?
    Given my multitude of vague clues...
    "Don�t ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive, and go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." - Howard Thurman


    [SIGPIC]http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l110/evillinclinations/fortune45.gif[/SIGPIC]

    ...and yes, I'm still on about that...






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