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[INFJ] Where's my lover...

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Ah yes, the most subjective of all subjective concepts in the world.

Agreed. Yet for my purpose, I would describe it as living a healthy lifestyle as it regards our biological, psychological, social, and physical environments; and in symbiosis with our Earth.
 

sculpting

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Orobas...you're a god !

But...
Retreat is for weak.
I'll be painting by her blood, that's the only thing that will appease my anger. Let it destroy me...

No good can come from life...

Aphrodite ==> :hug:

But when you are done, when you have hurt her, hurt her lover. What will you feel then? You will sit alone, still be alone, isolated. And then you will feel the pain of what you have inflicted upon another. During the anger that is funneled through Te, you quench your pain, and have your revenge. Then for the rest of your life, you will feel remorse and pain and still be emotionally alone.

Think back upon the first time you kissed her lips. Think of the love you felt for her then. Feel that love and let it drown you, overwhelm you, encompass you. FEEL it Then think of what it would be like to see her in pain. Picture her face in pain and FEEL it. What does it make you feel inside? Anytime you think of being cruel to her, remember the taste of her lips, her smell, the texture of her skin, her eyes as you held her, that love, remember the beautiful moments when you were closest to her. Hold those memories in your hand. Then let your hatred dissipate because hurting her would only hurt you. I find alcohol helps forgiveness. ;)


Think about it: Romantic love as we know it can actually be the main deterrent to unconditional love; how weird is that concept? In loving only one to distraction, it can keep us from loving many, from loving more. Perhaps not as deeply, but more acceptingly. For example, we can have children and love them all equally and unconditionally, yet we distance ourselves somewhat because we know they are their own person; they will assume their own place in the world, which is as it should be. Yet at the first opportunity nature makes us want to attach, and to attach as deeply as possible, and attach for the rest of our lives, giving our best to that one other person, who is supposed to be everything to us, forever! If we don't, we feel jealous and angry; and we eventually feel detached and depressed, in great numbers. Can we not see the flaws in this model? We are surely evolved and intelligent enough beings that we can now say, No! It is time for a more unifying and less dividing Love. We need it to heal us; we need it to heal our great World. How can we evolve out of this greedy model of Procreative Love and--Recreate Love?

Interesting. Funny, I think I could easily love one person very, very deeply. And then have sex with other people in a more open caring way of loving without a problem. I wouldnt NEED to but wouldnt be bothered by it. The trick-I would become emotionally attached to those I sleep with, thus casual no strings attached sex would end up being hurtful in the long run. I would also be perfectly okay with the person I love having sex with other people, as long as I was secure in that deep love between us. I dont care if they also deeply love other people even.

So I guess I dont mind sharing or being shared as long as I am secure in the depth of the one deep emotional commitment.

unconditional love-how do we describe that? Does it have to include physical relations? I'd have to think on this for awhile.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Interesting. Funny, I think I could easily love one person very, very deeply. And then have sex with other people in a more open caring way of loving without a problem. I wouldnt NEED to but wouldnt be bothered by it. The trick-I would become emotionally attached to those I sleep with, thus casual no strings attached sex would end up being hurtful in the long run. I would also be perfectly okay with the person I love having sex with other people, as long as I was secure in that deep love between us. I dont care if they also deeply love other people even.

So I guess I dont mind sharing or being shared as long as I am secure in the depth of the one deep emotional commitment.

Well, then, you might be poly. Do you think you are? These are interesting thoughts I think. Yet it is still hard at times, even for those who are most committed to this ideal, because, I believe we are not hard-wired nor conditioned to be able to handle much alternative relationship dynamics.


unconditional love-how do we describe that? Does it have to include physical relations? I'd have to think on this for awhile.

I don't know. It's a tough concept for sure. But I even think just simply loving each other in all our intricacies would be a major step in the right direction.
 

Moiety

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Agreed. Yet for my purpose, I would describe it as living a healthy lifestyle as it regards our biological, psychological, social, and physical environments; and in symbiosis with our Earth.

We haven't had that since the stone age. But on the bright side we also evolved since then into something different with different expectations. Not necessarily better, just different. We are becoming less like animals, less of a slave to our animalistic instincts, for good or bad.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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We haven't had that since the stone age. But on the bright side we also evolved since then into something different with different expectations. Not necessarily better, just different. We are becoming less like animals, less of a slave to our animalistic instincts, for good or bad.

Some cultures until very recently have as well, in your neck of the woods. Remote Tibetan villages, etc.

Srsly? Our species might be intelligent, but not so intelligent that we don't know better than to kill our host......We are becoming much worse. Our only hope is that beneficial technologies will be created fast enough to save us...........
 

Moiety

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Some cultures until very recently have as well, in your neck of the woods. Remote Tibetan villages, etc.

Srsly? Our species might be intelligent, but not so intelligent that we don't know better than to kill our host......We are becoming much worse. Our only hope is that beneficial technologies will be created fast enough to save us...........

We are becoming much worse? In what way? And are people more happy in those tibetan villages? Funny it's mentioned in this topic...how true to their instincts and nature do you think tibetans really are? Polyamory is certainly not a consideration, nor is sexual expression in the way we have today in western society... It's all relative.
 

Thalassa

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Orobas...you're a god !

But...
Retreat is for weak.
I'll be painting by her blood, that's the only thing that will appease my anger. Let it destroy me...

I really have compassion for you, except for when you say things like this ... you sound extremely selfish and mentally unstable. I would be MUCH more on your side if you were still in a relationship with her and she had lied or cheated on you. But the cold, hard fact remains that you dumped her. You ended the relationship. From that point forward you have no claims to revenge. Your attitude of revenge only makes sense if you were still with her and she was unfaithful or cruel to you in some way. Not only that, but you seemed to have no problem having an affair with her while she was married. What if her husband had murdered both of you?

I understand that you're in pain, but your obsession with revenge is completely unfounded. The reason why I have used such harsh language with you is because I don't believe that someone in your particular frame of mind should be mollycoddled - you really, really need to use your head for a minute.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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We are becoming much worse? In what way?

Too convoluted to explain here.....

And are people more happy in those tibetan villages?

Yes, they were until their pristine village was tainted by 'progress' and Westernized development models.

Funny it's mentioned in this topic...how true to their instincts and nature do you think tibetans really are?

Before outside influence? Probably extremely true. Why should I think otherwise? If you're natural and live by instinct within the limits of your environment, why should you be anything else?

Polyamory is certainly not a consideration, nor is sexual expression in the way we have today in western society... It's all relative.

Polyamory is just another western definition for a concept, the purpose of which, is to allow us to live more contentedly as humans. Tibetans, like many ancient and modern cultures, practiced polyandry mostly, but I'm sure polygamy at times. Furthermore, those that practiced multiple marriage in some form or another, would probably meet the definition of polyamory. For the most part, from what I understand, primitive people experience great emotion in the form of joy and love and happiness, possibly more so than more 'modernized' humans.
 

Kelemvor

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But when you are done, when you have hurt her, hurt her lover. What will you feel then? You will sit alone, still be alone, isolated. And then you will feel the pain of what you have inflicted upon another. During the anger that is funneled through Te, you quench your pain, and have your revenge. Then for the rest of your life, you will feel remorse and pain and still be emotionally alone.

I'll feel like I have transferred my pain. Where it came from, and where it belongs...
I'll feel like justice been done.
I need to feel their hate towards me.
Remorse will be out of the game.

But that's not what I'm feeling right now ! Data slightly been modified and my feelings followed up.

Think back upon the first time you kissed her lips. Think of the love you felt for her then. Feel that love and let it drown you, overwhelm you, encompass you. FEEL it Then think of what it would be like to see her in pain. Picture her face in pain and FEEL it. What does it make you feel inside? Anytime you think of being cruel to her, remember the taste of her lips, her smell, the texture of her skin, her eyes as you held her, that love, remember the beautiful moments when you were closest to her. Hold those memories in your hand. Then let your hatred dissipate because hurting her would only hurt you. I find alcohol helps forgiveness. ;)

I will - would - have no remorse, no pity. That's not the one I loved. The one I loved would be just an illusion. The person that I'll would have in front of me will be the one that caused all this/that pain.
Those memories...I'm deliberately ignoring them and i'll do so. All that I let pass are the negative ones. I'm programmed like this...
I want to let my rage grow. This hatred will push me forward, it will not permit forgiveness. It's my ally !

But for the moment...I'm the only responsible, I'm the only one that caused it.
For the moment, I ignore what happened and ignore what will happen.
I'm just imagining possibilities.
For the moment, I am paranoid...
 

Kelemvor

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We haven't had that since the stone age. But on the bright side we also evolved since then into something different with different expectations. Not necessarily better, just different. We are becoming less like animals, less of a slave to our animalistic instincts, for good or bad.

We didn't evolve from stone age. Only tools did.
 

Vasilisa

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Have you ever had a broken heart before this, Kelemvor?
 

Vasilisa

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It is extremely rough, I can empathize with truly having your heart broke apart.

But there is something to be said for getting through it....
I'm quite sure you don't want to hear it right now. Maybe it sounds like diminishing your feelings.
It is hard for me to explain, but, to feel those depths and endure it all... can leave someone with a kind of... grace, I think.
In some cases.

Take heart.
 

Kelemvor

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I really have compassion for you, except for when you say things like this ... you sound extremely selfish and mentally unstable.

Perhaps I am.

I would be MUCH more on your side if you were still in a relationship with her and she had lied or cheated on you. But the cold, hard fact remains that you dumped her. You ended the relationship. From that point forward you have no claims to revenge. Your attitude of revenge only makes sense if you were still with her and she was unfaithful or cruel to you in some way. Not only that, but you seemed to have no problem having an affair with her while she was married. What if her husband had murdered both of you?


I left BECAUSE she was married, and didn't wish her harm. I did not dump her...and she knew it.
I said that I was always loving her and I will but If we keep on, the separation will only be more hurtful.
But in some way...you're right...

I had problem having affair with her...it's the reason why I left...

I understand that you're in pain, but your obsession with revenge is completely unfounded. The reason why I have used such harsh language with you is because I don't believe that someone in your particular frame of mind should be mollycoddled - you really, really need to use your head for a minute.

I don't know...
Maybe I'm just needing appeasement and thinking that what I want to do will bring it to me - Yes, it's would be incredibly selfish... - Maybe not.

But right now...I'm feeling good. Not for long I suppose...
 

Kelemvor

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It is extremely rough, I can empathize with truly having your heart broke apart.

But there is something to be said for getting through it....
I'm quite sure you don't want to hear it right now. Maybe it sounds like diminishing your feelings.
It is hard for me to explain, but, to feel those depths and endure it all... can leave someone with a kind of... grace, I think.
In some cases.

Take heart.

Thank you !

I already know what you are meaning. But you are wrong, I would have those feelings even if it happened in a different context.
 

sculpting

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It is extremely rough, I can empathize with truly having your heart broke apart.

But there is something to be said for getting through it....
I'm quite sure you don't want to hear it right now. Maybe it sounds like diminishing your feelings.
It is hard for me to explain, but, to feel those depths and endure it all... can leave someone with a kind of... grace, I think.
In some cases.

Take heart.

Km, I think perhaps Vasilisa's thoughts may carry much merit. I think-someone please help here-the first time you get your heart broken it feels terrible, horrible, overwhelmingly painful. I have only had this happen once. It made me totally crazy for about three few weeks. I had an emotional breakdown of sorts.

I couldnt figure out what was the right thing to feel or think. I would go from feeling so hurt and confused to very angry and defensive to feeling I was horribly flawed and defective. The oddest part-this is an Ne dom thing I think-I really could not identify what the right course of action was. I could not trust or have faith that my decisions were actually sound. Even more odd-my decisions from moment to moment would actually contridict each other. One minute it was all my fault-the next it was all the other person's fault. One moment I wanted to apologize profusely, then next scream in agony and anger. The pain was overwhelming my ability to rationalize in anyway.

The trick maybe-Vasilisa's point-that once you go through this once, the next time it happens, you at least understand what to expect-so it isnt quite so bad as the first time? You know that eventually the pain will ease and stability will return as you have time to process out all of the things you feel. So it isnt quite so scary the next time around?

All of those feelings are valid, real, authentic and painful-yet the actions you choose as a result of those feelings are what really reflects upon your core essence-who you really are.

I left BECAUSE she was married, and didn't wish her harm. I did not dump her...and she knew it.
I said that I was always loving her and I will but If we keep on, the separation will only be more hurtful.
But in some way...you're right...

I had problem having affair with her...it's the reason why I left...

This makes me glad to read. You tried to establish Te boundaries for your own and her emotions to protect you both, anticipating the future harm that could result from continuation of your actions. You gave her a direct Te ultimatum of sorts-end this or make it something real-that doesnt seem to be how Fe works though, but I cant really speak to it. But yes, I would have done the same thing in this situation.

You have to be careful with your anger
-recognize how it feels like a dragon inside of you and is a source of incredible strength and fortitude. I think ENFPs can funnel our strong emotions through Te to give them structure. When backed into a corner we can become very aggressive defensively.

Likely this "dragon core" is very important in helping us fight for just causes, stand up for the rights of others, and give us strength in times of hurt or adversity. We will stand above and beyond the crowd and fly in the face of social norms to help relieve the pain of the other using this strength.

But if you use this dragon core, this deep strength, to lash out at others to relieve your own pain (temporarily I might add, as that pain will return), in revenge, you are abusing that gift, that strength. It is not what you were designed to do, thus later will burden you with immense feelings of remorse and guilt, sorrow and pain. It flies directly in the face of your Fi-which directs you to relieve the suffering of others.

As hard as it is, I always try and quench this deep anger as I, like you it seems, have that strength in abundance. I have found the hard way, that by lashing out in anger I can hurt other people very deeply. It is unkind and I am left horrified by the results.

:hug: Stick around with us. We will hold your hand while you hurt.
 

Kelemvor

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Km, I think perhaps Vasilisa's thoughts may carry much merit. I think-someone please help here-the first time you get your heart broken it feels terrible, horrible, overwhelmingly painful. I have only had this happen once. It made me totally crazy for about three few weeks. I had an emotional breakdown of sorts.

I couldnt figure out what was the right thing to feel or think. I would go from feeling so hurt and confused to very angry and defensive to feeling I was horribly flawed and defective. The oddest part-this is an Ne dom thing I think-I really could not identify what the right course of action was. I could not trust or have faith that my decisions were actually sound. Even more odd-my decisions from moment to moment would actually contridict each other. One minute it was all my fault-the next it was all the other person's fault. One moment I wanted to apologize profusely, then next scream in agony and anger. The pain was overwhelming my ability to rationalize in anyway.

Now...imagine this state during for months. Do you really think that you'll take it just as lesson and make head away like nothing happened ? (Not that you could anyway)
That's not about heartbreak...It's upon inflicting suffering and being conscious of our acts for reasons that are not valid for me, really not...and keeping on doing it.

The trick maybe-Vasilisa's point-that once you go through this once, the next time it happens, you at least understand what to expect-so it isnt quite so bad as the first time? You know that eventually the pain will ease and stability will return as you have time to process out all of the things you feel. So it isnt quite so scary the next time around?

All of those feelings are valid, real, authentic and painful-yet the actions you choose as a result of those feelings are what really reflects upon your core essence-who you really are.

I see.
But I doubt there will be a "next time".


This makes me glad to read. You tried to establish Te boundaries for your own and her emotions to protect you both, anticipating the future harm that could result from continuation of your actions. You gave her a direct Te ultimatum of sorts-end this or make it something real-that doesnt seem to be how Fe works though, but I cant really speak to it. But yes, I would have done the same thing in this situation.

Exactly !
You have great knowledge of the mechanism of the Fe strangely. But I am not going to complain about it !
Indeed that decision hurt her a lot more than I expected. And her feelings at that moment made me greatly regret it...
I didn't thought she was that sensible. She never shown it in any case...
It's after that exact moment that she changed, and became strangely cold.
I would give anything to discover what happened on her mind...

You have to be careful with your anger[/B]-recognize how it feels like a dragon inside of you and is a source of incredible strength and fortitude. I think ENFPs can funnel our strong emotions through Te to give them structure. When backed into a corner we can become very aggressive defensively.

You feel it too...

Likely this "dragon core" is very important in helping us fight for just causes, stand up for the rights of others, and give us strength in times of hurt or adversity. We will stand above and beyond the crowd and fly in the face of social norms to help relieve the pain of the other using this strength.

But if you use this dragon core, this deep strength, to lash out at others to relieve your own pain (temporarily I might add, as that pain will return), in revenge, you are abusing that gift, that strength. It is not what you were designed to do, thus later will burden you with immense feelings of remorse and guilt, sorrow and pain. It flies directly in the face of your Fi-which directs you to relieve the suffering of others.

This cause is just enough for me !
If they can inflict such pain on me, they can do it on others.

As hard as it is, I always try and quench this deep anger as I, like you it seems, have that strength in abundance. I have found the hard way, that by lashing out in anger I can hurt other people very deeply. It is unkind and I am left horrified by the results.

What you experienced was nothing !
At a certain stage and in certain situations, this anger quenched for so long will unleash and devour your soul totally, it will blind all of your senses, you'll be just a slave serving her. but gives you incredible power in counterpart.
In my case it did not happen yet at least not completely, but I fear that it's just matter of time...
I just felt a small part of it and it didn't lasted long.
When it happen, you will not feel remorse any more. I will not lie to you...it's not an unpleasant sensation.

:hug: Stick around with us. We will hold your hand while you hurt.

That's very kind of you, and I am extremely grateful !
 
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