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Thread: NFs and truth

  1. #51
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I'm having trouble with this though. My ENFP sister has always hit reality head on. I have not, even with a developed Ti.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    I posted this on INTP central some time ago, and got their perspective, but now I'm curious what you NFs here think. There's a higher concentration of you idealists here on MBTIc, so I figure I might get a little more feedback from them here.

    Well?....
    I agree with you. I do this sometimes myself. I am an INTJ/INFJ combination. I've been married 25 years to a realist so I have learned that I can't just believe whatever I want unless it's based on facts, but it didn't used to bother me to believe something solely based on intuition. When I say "bother" I mean I have learned it's better, and other people like it better if I have "facts" to back up my beliefs.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i don't know if i'd make any generalizations about NFs overall; let's separate NFJs and NFPs

    NFJs -- because of Fe, they may not always say what they believe to be true if they think there's some negative social consequence to saying it. this has nothing to do with what they actually believe; it's only how they interact. ALSO, Ni always second guesses any statement, so the NFJs may be reluctant to say much with complete certainty (this is more true for INFJs).

    actually, NFJs with strong Ti may have an even more accurate view on reality than NTPs because Ni sends Ti more perspectives to analyze, whereas Ne isn't as self-questioning. (just defending myself here, heh.)

    NFPs -- i think this is actually what you're getting at. if Fi doesn't want to believe something, it wont. at all. it believes in the things it values. so when an NFP is in a debate, they're much more likely to dismiss factual evidence if it seems "wrong" to them. the frustrating thing is that they can see the same possibilities as their NTP counterparts, so the NTPs may expect the same level of analysis from them...but, while Ti makes logical conclusions, Fi makes "right" conclusions.

    this is not to say that NFPs don't use Ti, though. it's just that there's less focus on it. and you're right, Fi is probably much less likely to make use of Se and Si than Ti is, because Ti is constantly looking for more things to analyze and Fi doesn't really care as long as its values are in tact.

    one of my best friends is an ENFP, and we debate like all day long when we're together. she will sometimes refuse to see the "truth" (Ti truth); she'll just defend whichever stance seems most "right" to her. our debates almost always end with her acknowledging that my stance is more logically correct, but she "just doesn't like looking at it that way".
    I think you might have the definitions of Ne and Ni backwards
    Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes

    Now, there's nothing that makes introverted thinking any more 'real' than introverted feeling. In fact, 'proving' is often in the domain of extraverted thinking, and extraverted thinking often concerns itself with facts. Extraverted thinking is often also a well used process of __FP types. There is no reason that an introverted feeling type would make any less use of sensing than a thinking type

  4. #54
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    I think you might have the definitions of Ne and Ni backwards
    Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes

    Now, there's nothing that makes introverted thinking any more 'real' than introverted feeling. In fact, 'proving' is often in the domain of extraverted thinking, and extraverted thinking often concerns itself with facts. Extraverted thinking is often also a well used process of __FP types. There is no reason that an introverted feeling type would make any less use of sensing than a thinking type
    first of all, i definitely don't have the definitions of Ni and Ne confused. Ni focuses on seeing as many perspectives on an issue as possible. that's why i said it makes people question their judgments. once a judging function makes a conclusion, Ni says, well, that's only right from this one perspective...what about other ones?

    Ne makes connections and generates possibilities, and will try to make new connections all the time. but it doesn't question it's own ideas. that's Ti or Fi's job.

    and i disagree about Ti vs. Fi. Ti wants to analyze and systematize all the input it gets. if it doesn't have enough information to correctly systematize something, it'll ask another function to get it more information...like Se or Si for example. i think Fi is less likely to do this because it's not as concerned with a complete logical framework for something. it would definitely ask other functions for more info if it couldn't conclude whether or not something is good or bad (Se or Si or whatever...Ne or Ti or Ni even). but i think Fi is more quick to make good vs. bad conclusions than Ti is to make true vs. false conclusions.

    i dunno, that's just my perspective

    edit: add-on: NFPs obviously use Ti, too.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    first of all, i definitely don't have the definitions of Ni and Ne confused. Ni focuses on seeing as many perspectives on an issue as possible. that's why i said it makes people question their judgments. once a judging function makes a conclusion, Ni says, well, that's only right from this one perspective...what about other ones?

    Ne makes connections and generates possibilities, and will try to make new connections all the time. but it doesn't question it's own ideas. that's Ti or Fi's job.

    and i disagree about Ti vs. Fi. Ti wants to analyze and systematize all the input it gets. if it doesn't have enough information to correctly systematize something, it'll ask another function to get it more information...like Se or Si for example. i think Fi is less likely to do this because it's not as concerned with a complete logical framework for something. it would definitely ask other functions for more info if it couldn't conclude whether or not something is good or bad (Se or Si or whatever...Ne or Ti or Ni even). but i think Fi is more quick to make good vs. bad conclusions than Ti is to make true vs. false conclusions.

    i dunno, that's just my perspective

    edit: add-on: NFPs obviously use Ti, too.
    Really, any function can 'second guess' you at times. I don't think that line of thinking really goes anywhere. Now. I know the way you illustrate it, you'd think that introverted thinking accepts more "information", but the way you're describing it, it's starting to sound more like Ne or Te.

    One thing. If we're talking about Fi, and Ti uses, we're usually talking about very different contexts.

    Fi can ask other functions for information too! So maybe (speaking just for myself here) Fi makes conclusions and then backs them up (heck if that happened the other way around, it'd be thinking leading the way).

    Still doesn't say much about sensing/lack of.

    I'm still reminded of how string theorists are trying to change the definition of science from being supported by experiment to being mathematecally somewhat consistant. That seems more to me like taking sensing off the table (redifining reality if it doesn't fit a model). Definately not asking sensing for information.

    Did you read the link I posted?

  6. #56
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    Really, any function can 'second guess' you at times. I don't think that line of thinking really goes anywhere. Now. I know the way you illustrate it, you'd think that introverted thinking accepts more "information", but the way you're describing it, it's starting to sound more like Ne or Te.

    One thing. If we're talking about Fi, and Ti uses, we're usually talking about very different contexts.

    Fi can ask other functions for information too! So maybe (speaking just for myself here) Fi makes conclusions and then backs them up (heck if that happened the other way around, it'd be thinking leading the way).

    Still doesn't say much about sensing/lack of.

    I'm still reminded of how string theorists are trying to change the definition of science from being supported by experiment to being mathematecally somewhat consistant. That seems more to me like taking sensing off the table (redifining reality if it doesn't fit a model). Definately not asking sensing for information.

    Did you read the link I posted?
    "you'd think that introverted thinking accepts more "information", but the way you're describing it, it's starting to sound more like Ne or Te. "
    the whole purpose of Ti is deduction. you can't deduce without information. that's all.

    "Fi can ask other functions for information too! So maybe (speaking just for myself here) Fi makes conclusions and then backs them up (heck if that happened the other way around, it'd be thinking leading the way)."
    of course Fi can ask other functions for information. i even said that explicitly in my last post. Fi and Ti have access to the exact same information.

    the difference in function between Fi and Ti is that Ti looks for probabilistic logical truths by method of deduction (analyzing inputs and assigning probabilities and truth values based on logical rules). Fi looks for what is "good" or "worth believing in" by deduction (runs input through the self-defined rule system of personal values). also, their attitudes are slightly different: Ti wants to build up its framework as much as possible, whereas Fi is more likely to be satisfied with the values that have already been defined.

    my point is that "good and "worth believing in" are much less exact than "probabilistic logical truths"...therefore Fi may come to a satisfactory conclusion with less precise information. that's really the only assertion i'm making...that Fi can make satisfactory judgments with less information than Ti.

    although now that i'm reading back over my argument, i don't know if i'm necessarily right about the attitude of Ti. maybe it really is satisfied just applying its rules...maybe it's another function (Ne?) that wants Ti to have more information. bleh.

    anyways, its obvious that both Ti and Fi can make conclusions about information coming in from Se. it's not as obvious that Ti and Fi would be equally likely to employ Se for something.

    "Did you read the link I posted?"
    yeah i've read that site a million times

  7. #57
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    eh, i just noticed a hole in my logic.

    i was basically saying that if Fi is satisfied, it will be less likely to use Se.
    but that's obviously true for Ti too.

    and i guess its hard to say Fi is more likely to be satisfied than Ti. in fact it may be the other way around. hmm...

  8. #58
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    I believe that there are absolutes. However, I also believe that there are different kinds of absoutely true truths, and that contradictory things can be simultaneously true.
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    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  9. #59
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I have no problem processing truth, I just don't believe in it in the same sense that NTs do.

    Truth is an interpretation of the available information. It is what people conform to believing is the most verifiable conclusion. Truth is an individual perspective. It is completely subjective and everyone sees it differently. If not, then it's because they choose to conform to someone else's perception of truth. There are no absolute truths in this world, only best fit truths that are suitable for certain situations and points in time. People and society are always changing and evolving. Truth inevitably changes and evolves with them.
    I totally agree with Kiddo. I understand truth similar way.

  10. #60
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I believe that there are absolutes. However, I also believe that there are different kinds of absolutely true truths, and that contradictory things can be simultaneously true.
    I agree with that too.

    Usually there is impersonal truth (things that just are, regardless of the observer -- such as the atomic composition of iron, or how cells divide, or who actually performed a particular action). They are statements of fact and replicable: People observing at different points in time will come to the same answer.

    But as soon as an observer is involved and someone is determining the relevance or motivation or impact of something, well, those sorts of "truths" become more fluid and can be even paradoxical in nature.

    The inclusion of human beings with limited perspective (and we are all limited -- we cannot see everything from every side from every point of view all at once) results in a multiplicity of observations.

    So the truths in the secondary category can seem to conflict. And there are also conflicts when truths in the second category masquerade as truths in the first.

    It seems to me that NFs tend to focus on this latter type more than the first type. It is very important for me to understand the latter, but the only category that has "certainty" is the first. I can draw loose rules for the latter, but they are general rules, not specific ones.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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