User Tag List

First 23456 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 82

Thread: NFs and truth

  1. #31
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    eNFJ
    Enneagram
    4w3 sx/so
    Socionics
    eNFJ Ni
    Posts
    11,443

    Default

    Illness and pain. They don't go away, regardless of mantra. That falls into reality.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  2. #32
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,516

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    "I should be fair - it's not that you can NEVER accept the truth, but a lot of the time (especially expressed in my INFP friend) what actually is true, doesn't coincide with what they WANT to be true, they favor their desire and like to stick to that regardless. Some might look at this as a virtue. NTs don't have this ability. What I want always has to give way to what actually is."

    it sounds like your real issue is with how you observe feeling types going about the process of choosing not to believe in something. But really, a thinking arguement isn't any better than a feeling value judgement for that.
    Uh... well... I don't know if you noticed, but I wasn't comparing NFs to NTs per se... there was one little contrast, but it was only a part of the thesis. I don't understand why you're taking this like it's an attack of some kind.

    Remember they're both called rational functions.
    Only because they're not perceiving functions. That's literally the only criteria. If they both did the same things, then there wouldn't be different names for them.


    Why don't you give me one of these 'axioms' that your INFP friend chooses not to believe in them.
    Mathematics for one. And she's not the only one who does that kind of shit. My brother doesn't believe in history, though I'm thinking that might just have been an (failed) attempt at getting out of doing his homework.

    Also, another friend INFJ can't tell the difference between a guy who likes her and a guy who likes her vagina. Well, it's not that she can't tell, I think she just kids herself a lot, because she'd rather be in a relationship that she knows (somewhere in her mind) is fake, than not be in one at all.


    More clarification -- I'm not sure if I said this already, but in case I didn't. I think NFs will only reject or be unsure of the truth when it's not what they want to be real.

    If it doesn't affect them negatively or isn't necessary for the survival of themselves/values, then they're perfectly fine with reality as it is.

    But for trivial things like "where do babies come from? The stork." NFs I think are the most willing to accept that, because

    A. it doesn't have to make sense for them to believe it -- that is not to say that if it DOES make sense that they don't
    B. it sounds cool

    It's the same recipe for imaginary friends and all that kind of shit.
    we fukin won boys

  3. #33
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    2,590

    Default

    I do not think NFs believe whatever they want, to the exclusion of objectivity, at least, to any balanced NFs. Merely that they find ways to make the truth more easily acceptable to them, as their compass is an internal world of relationships, so how things can fit into their web matters more. If I don't read the NFs here wrong, their thoughts seem to go along "of what use is the world, if we do not have each other".

    This does not detract from truth in any way, merely the acceptance of it is different?

    I actually think NFs second-guess themselves a lot more than NTs, and that is where the compassion comes in, and if you see the approach to finding truth as an unravelling of layers, then they do it better.

    To see truth in a softer light, if you wish. I think they're more honest with themselves than NTs. As someone else pointed out here, little lies vs big ones.

    An NT's world is frequently harsher. But we do also have to question if someone who goes for brutal honesty is after the honesty or the brutality. The former will work in favour of objectivity. The latter could cloud things worse than emotions and consideration for others would. To add to the analogy. "Of what use are others if it is the wrong world".

    The truth does not change. Only the perception, if you see the distinction.

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    I ignore the concept of death. I suppose that's "less real".

    Or just enterprising.
    That is hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Illness and pain. They don't go away, regardless of mantra. That falls into reality.
    I could be wrong, but I think Se is your way out. :hugs:

  4. #34
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    I should be fair - it's not that you can NEVER accept the truth, but a lot of the time (especially expressed in my INFP friend) what actually is true, doesn't coincide with what they WANT to be true, they favor their desire and like to stick to that regardless. Some might look at this as a virtue. NTs don't have this ability. What I want always has to give way to what actually is.
    Yeah, I'm like that too... preferring to focus on what I want. I would like to have 8GB of memory and the fastest processor available, along with Quad SLI GeForce 8800 Ultras, but in fact I have a somewhat more modest setup because I can't afford that. But I still WANT to have it, even though I can't. I would also like to live in a mansion and have billions of dollars in my bank account, maybe get some cosmetic surgery to improve my appearance as well. Come to think of it, I also want true social equality between several currently existing groups, and the abandonment of the old traditions that created those divisions. I know it won't necessarily happen, but I enjoy imagining it...

    Have you heard the saying, "Look to a gown of gold, and you will at least get a sleeve of it?" What I don't understand about T's is why they're satisfied with nature and reality as they are. I want to try and make reality as close to my idea of how it should be as possible, even if it isn't necessarily logical to do so.
    Absolutely not. SFs might be worse. In fact many a time I've said something rude to an SF and they struck me.
    :eek: You mean they actually, physically hit you, just for being rude? I think anyone who does that should go to prison, because that's not an excuse.

    My INFP friend elaborated once about how she's come to the conclusion that the world's knowledge is comprised of axioms, and she can just say "oh I don't believe in that one" and as far as she's concerned, it's not true. Perhaps (most likely) she exaggerated, but she told me several times that she doesn't believe in geometry.
    What?! That's absurd... How can you not "believe" in geometry? It may not affect all my decisions, but I can't deny it's existence and validity for it's own purpose. It's practically staring me in the face as I type... it governs the shape of so many things. And besides, I find near-perfect geometric shapes (cubes, spheres, triangles, etc.) to be aesthetically pleasing for some reason. What could you possibly have against geometry, other than having difficulties in Geometry class? Did their parents use to beat them with a tetrahedron or something? Honestly, I think xxFP's are sweet and I try to be nice to them, but the way many of them (perhaps not all of them) govern their values make me more than a little uneasy. Let's just say it's very easy for an xxFP to incorporate values that aren't very good, and it's near impossible to get rid of them once they're in there.

    The way I see it is...

    Te can be held accountable to the goal of a set of procedures.

    Ti can be held accountable to the nature of logic.

    Fe can be held accountable to the feeling states of other people.

    Fi can be held accountable to... what? Itself?

  5. #35
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Uh... well... I don't know if you noticed, but I wasn't comparing NFs to NTs per se... there was one little contrast, but it was only a part of the thesis. I don't understand why you're taking this like it's an attack of some kind.

    Only because they're not perceiving functions. That's literally the only criteria. If they both did the same things, then there wouldn't be different names for them.


    Mathematics for one. And she's not the only one who does that kind of shit. My brother doesn't believe in history, though I'm thinking that might just have been an (failed) attempt at getting out of doing his homework.

    Also, another friend INFJ can't tell the difference between a guy who likes her and a guy who likes her vagina. Well, it's not that she can't tell, I think she just kids herself a lot, because she'd rather be in a relationship that she knows (somewhere in her mind) is fake, than not be in one at all.


    More clarification -- I'm not sure if I said this already, but in case I didn't. I think NFs will only reject or be unsure of the truth when it's not what they want to be real.

    If it doesn't affect them negatively or isn't necessary for the survival of themselves/values, then they're perfectly fine with reality as it is.

    But for trivial things like "where do babies come from? The stork." NFs I think are the most willing to accept that, because

    A. it doesn't have to make sense for them to believe it -- that is not to say that if it DOES make sense that they don't
    B. it sounds cool

    It's the same recipe for imaginary friends and all that kind of shit.
    If what you are saying was true, NFs would be very unlikely to be paranoid, have issues with anxiety, or to suffer from depression, wouldn't they?

    NFs don't necessarily consider truth and fact the same thing, nor see concrete reality as the only reality.

    Math I believe is pretty real, but there will always be new developments.

    History . . . I like history, but you don't want to look at any event, etc from only one perspective.

    Sexual relationships, for me: no marriage = no boom-booms.

    It can take me awhile to decide that someone is taking advantage of me beyond what I consider acceptable and a little longer still to do something about it, but I have come to that point more than once.

    SJs pretend that the way things look is the way things really are.
    SPs pretend that there aren't going to be any consequences.
    NTs pretend that they know what they are talking about.
    NFs pretend that reality is what you make it.

    Or something like that.

    I don't see that NFs have an unusual level of disconnect from reality compared to different types. It's just a different kind and it probably makes about as much sense to others as the other types' disconnects do to us.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #36
    Wild Card Atomic Fiend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    873 sx/so
    Socionics
    SLE Ti
    Posts
    7,164

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    More clarification -- I'm not sure if I said this already, but in case I didn't. I think NFs will only reject or be unsure of the truth when it's not what they want to be real.

    If it doesn't affect them negatively or isn't necessary for the survival of themselves/values, then they're perfectly fine with reality as it is.

    But for trivial things like "where do babies come from? The stork." NFs I think are the most willing to accept that, because

    A. it doesn't have to make sense for them to believe it -- that is not to say that if it DOES make sense that they don't
    B. it sounds cool

    It's the same recipe for imaginary friends and all that kind of shit.
    You know you could have just as easily said that NF's are more prone to denial. That is what your trying to say right? We know the truth but refuse to acknowledge it as such. The whole thing with the stork and the imaginary friend comes off more as an insult then an observation, as the I've met every type of NF IRL, and none of them have had imaginary friends. Of course I know you don't mean it literally, but as an example.

    Denial isn't exclusive to NFs. I was going to say that it was primarily a Fi thing, but anyone who wants something that isn't bad enough goes through it.

    Just because thinking isn't our primary function doesn't mean we're idiots. Hopefully you already know this and this is all just a case of miscommunication.

  7. #37
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,516

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    You know you could have just as easily said that NF's are more prone to denial. That is what your trying to say right? We know the truth but refuse to acknowledge it as such. The whole thing with the stork and the imaginary friend comes off more as an insult then an observation, as the I've met every type of NF IRL, and none of them have had imaginary friends. Of course I know you don't mean it literally, but as an example.

    Edit: Yes, basically denial. The term didn't happen to cross my mind.

    Denial isn't exclusive to NFs. I was going to say that it was primarily a Fi thing, but anyone who wants something that isn't bad enough goes through it.

    Just because thinking isn't our primary function doesn't mean we're idiots. Hopefully you already know this and this is all just a case of miscommunication.

    How many times do I have to say that I'm not attacking you. Believing what you want instead of what is, is not the same as saying you're stupid.

    There's no miscommunication. I think most of you are extrapolating wrongly from my post that I think NFs are stupid, and that's exactly the opposite of how I feel.

    I've said before and I'll say again, NFs are gg. I have more NF friends than S friends altogether. Well, I suppose that's not true. I initiate contact with the NFs more than with the Ss.

    I think some of the things you guys DO is stupid, but that doesn't make you stupid altogether...

    I get the feeling I'm being manipulated.... like... you guys know I don't actually think you're dumb, but you want to hear me say that you're smart.

    ...

    Now I kind of don't want to make this post. I hate being manipulated. Oh well I can't be sure, and I don't want there to be "miscommunication" so I'm making this perfectly clear.


    Also, I thought you were INTP. Did you reevaluate or were you just pretending over on INTPc?
    we fukin won boys

  8. #38
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    INFp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    449

    Default

    This sorta touches on something I'm dealing with presently, but may or may not be what you are refering to.

    I have reached a point where the "truth" of a situation seems fairly clear and there is little I can do to interperet it otherwise, but I still retain a vision of what I think could be and keep trying to ignore that truth and find some new solution. Basicaly I know what the situation is and I know there is little to no hope of changing it, but I still see a clear vision of what could be. I accept the truth "for the moment" but refuse to believe that the truth is unalterable thinking that I'm just going about things the wrong way and that a solution thats agreeable with my vision can exist and I just need to keep looking to find it.

    Its not exactly how I see things, but I'm fond of the Adam Savage saying "I reject your reality and substitute my own".

    In a more general sense, I think it has to do with whether or not I can detach myself from the situation to see things objectivly or not. The more emotionaly invested I am in something, the more blind to reality I am. I "read between the lines" and try to interepret what I see to fit my vision. Sometimes that means reading things that were never written (at least not intentded). I don't see it as "rejecting the truth" I see it as "misinterpereting the obvious". Does that make sense to others?

  9. #39
    Senior Member marm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tovlo View Post
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Philip K. Dick.
    Great quote. PKD has a nice way of saying things.

    I tend to think very little actually falls into this realm. Perhaps nothing.
    I can feel this doubtful of 'reality' at times. Certainly, belief and perception are impossible to separate. The beliefs we can see the clearest are someone else's.

    To my mind, reality is most often, perhaps always, the perceptual experience of the person experiencing it. My experienced reality is different than another's. As humans sharing a life experience, they are interdependent reality experiences, but that does not make them the same. Nor does a difference between two perceptual realities mean either one is in error.
    I'm attracted to this perspective because its very accepting and I know that you mean it genuinely.

    I feel an internal compulsion to honor factual reality if I encounter it, but I feel no obligation to adopt someone else's vision of "truth" or reality as my own if I find it to simply be an agreed upon shared vision of reality among a particular group of people.
    I think I have something akin to this internal compulsion of yours. To deny to myself a perceived factual reality would feel like sacrelige.

    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    I do not think NFs believe whatever they want, to the exclusion of objectivity, at least, to any balanced NFs. Merely that they find ways to make the truth more easily acceptable to them, as their compass is an internal world of relationships, so how things can fit into their web matters more. If I don't read the NFs here wrong, their thoughts seem to go along "of what use is the world, if we do not have each other".
    That comes close, but its not the relationships with other people that is the fundamental value for me. Its simply relationships of subjective experiences and realities(mine and others; intrasubjective and intersubjective) of whatever ilk. A fact in isolation is meaningless. Its how the fact connects with other facts and to the world that creates a greater meaning. True, this does involve your statement that "of what use is the world, if we do not have each other".

    An idea of truth that I like is the Buddhist view of Dependent Co-arising. Its simultaneously abstract and idealistic, experiential and relational. It feels like an NF kind of idea to me, objectively unprovable and yet highly meaningful.

    I actually think NFs second-guess themselves a lot more than NTs, and that is where the compassion comes in, and if you see the approach to finding truth as an unravelling of layers, then they do it better.
    That hits the nail on the head. I know that I second-guess myself endlessly and one of the ways I think of truth is as existing in layers. There is something to the correlation of uncertainty of truth and compassion. The more uncertain I feel, the more compassionate I feel. I idealize compassion, and maybe a part of me idealizes self-doubt along with it. Uncertainty creates an openess in my experience which feels 'true'.

    An NT's world is frequently harsher. But we do also have to question if someone who goes for brutal honesty is after the honesty or the brutality. The former will work in favour of objectivity. The latter could cloud things worse than emotions and consideration for others would. To add to the analogy. "Of what use are others if it is the wrong world".
    Maybe NFs are less likely to brutally honest in the way of NTs, but to be fair I know I can be brutally honest when I feel one of my values has been treaded on. The difference might be that the healthy NF under normal circumstances would rather not be brutally honest even if the facts are obvious to them. Some NFs can be quite abrasive when they feel they're in the right.

    From an INFP's perspective:
    The truth does not change.
    Introverted Feeling
    Only the perception...
    Extraverted Intuition
    That is hope.
    Fi idealism projected into Ne future possibilties.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Have you heard the saying, "Look to a gown of gold, and you will at least get a sleeve of it?" What I don't understand about T's is why they're satisfied with nature and reality as they are. I want to try and make reality as close to my idea of how it should be as possible, even if it isn't necessarily logical to do so.
    That's a nice saying. I'd never heard it before.

    That relates to what I've heard about optimists. Supposely, optimists are less accurate in their perceptions of present reality, but they're more capable of creating new future realities. It takes some severe depression to cause an NF to lose their hopeful imagination. Depression often only fuels an NFs dreaming of what could be.

    Let's just say it's very easy for an xxFP to incorporate values that aren't very good, and it's near impossible to get rid of them once they're in there.
    This might be true. Once a value is deeply implanted in my psyche it takes on a life of its own.

    Fi can be held accountable to... what? Itself?
    Fi is held accountable to collective moral ideals even if they aren't as ameliorable to specific social conditions as Fe would be. Fi isn't merely personal subjectivism.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    If what you are saying was true, NFs would be very unlikely to be paranoid, have issues with anxiety, or to suffer from depression, wouldn't they?
    I for one can vouch for anxiety and depression.

    NFs don't necessarily consider truth and fact the same thing, nor see concrete reality as the only reality.
    Yep. I'm more likely to argue about 'truth' rather than to argue a specific truth.

  10. #40
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,516

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    What?! That's absurd...
    I may have used those words exactly.

    How can you not "believe" in geometry?
    I'm not so sure she meant she didn't believe in it. She doesn't have a very broad vocabulary, so my guess is she couldn't think of a better word.

    Though, looking at what both my friend and my brother were saying -- it almost appears as though they reject those things so they can shirk responsibility. Perhaps this is just motive?

    It may not affect all my decisions, but I can't deny it's existence and validity for it's own purpose. It's practically staring me in the face as I type... it governs the shape of so many things.
    All physical things to be precise.
    And besides, I find near-perfect geometric shapes (cubes, spheres, triangles, etc.) to be aesthetically pleasing for some reason. What could you possibly have against geometry, other than having difficulties in Geometry class?
    I think it may be as simple as that -- they dislike anything they don't excel at (or probably more likely, anything where they're not praised) and reject it as an irrelevant truth, so they don't have to be involved in it any longer.

    Makes enough sense to me. "If it doesn't make you feel good, fuck it. Who needs it?"

    Did their parents use to beat them with a tetrahedron or something? Honestly, I think xxFP's are sweet and I try to be nice to them, but the way many of them (perhaps not all of them) govern their values make me more than a little uneasy. Let's just say it's very easy for an xxFP to incorporate values that aren't very good, and it's near impossible to get rid of them once they're in there.

    The way I see it is...

    Te can be held accountable to the goal of a set of procedures.

    Ti can be held accountable to the nature of logic.

    Fe can be held accountable to the feeling states of other people.

    Fi can be held accountable to... what? Itself?
    Well, you have to look also at the perception axis. Fi... makes shit up (everything from compliments to imaginary friends to entire stories. Perception I think just helps out with those things), in addition to the values thing.
    we fukin won boys

Similar Threads

  1. [NF] NF and ADD
    By GZA in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 02-06-2011, 06:46 AM
  2. [MBTItm] NF and NT... drawn together like moth to flame
    By sakuraba in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 251
    Last Post: 05-08-2009, 04:00 PM
  3. [INFP] NFs and pride, conflict, attitude?
    By Cindyrella in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 12-27-2008, 07:23 AM
  4. [NF] NFs and religion
    By Cordiform in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: 12-01-2007, 02:15 PM
  5. Replies: 29
    Last Post: 07-16-2007, 01:47 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO