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  1. #41
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I think the ticket is that Fe is social glue, though best when authentic as well, definitely, it's used to smoothen things over and keep the peace, especially in groups. Fi is what it is, the only thing it's really got going for it is that it's genuine and authentic. It also somewhat feels like the connection you have between lovers, in that it inspires trust, and loyalty, vulnerability, and opening up to one another, at least, ime. Those things are incredible, but they have to happen in an environment that is completely safe. To disarm someone like that while being careless with their fragile state is...negligent at best. To manipulate with Fi feels like an oxymoron, though it is possible to enhance your own genuine enthusiasm to create a desired effect. To use that effect to gain something from someone and potentially harm them in the process is a breach of trust that's often irreversible, not to mention cruel, and ultimately the exact opposite of what Fi is supposed to do.
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  2. #42
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I think the ticket is that Fe is social glue, though best when authentic as well, definitely, it's used to smoothen things over and keep the peace, especially in groups. Fi is what it is, the only thing it's really got going for it is that it's genuine and authentic. It also somewhat feels like the connection you have between lovers, in that it inspires trust, and loyalty, vulnerability, and opening up to one another, at least, ime. Those things are incredible, but they have to happen in an environment that is completely safe. To disarm someone like that while being careless with their fragile state is...negligent at best. To manipulate with Fi feels like an oxymoron, though it is possible to enhance your own genuine enthusiasm to create a desired effect. To use that effect to gain something from someone and potentially harm them in the process is a breach of trust that's often irreversible, not to mention cruel, and ultimately the exact opposite of what Fi is supposed to do.
    you dont understand Fe...

  3. #43
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    you dont understand Fe...
    Feel free to fill it in, if you believe you do.I do however understand Fi, and that is relevant to the OP in this case.
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  4. #44
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    I think the OP is being given a particularly hard time by some and and do not find the OP offensive in the least. Please people why so personal.
    I myself tend to find i establish connections with people that may not be there or at least less than i believe. I tend to get emotionaly involved in my head and through wanting to help people, maybe, i take on their troubles and try to fix things thereby creating a connection. I often do this with people i hardly know too. So i think for me i can be the opposite but....
    i do also tend to "leave an impression" that i am often unaware of. For example when i was at school i thought people viewed me as a crazy odd bod but from meeting people years later i have found out that people viewed me as popular, innovative and cool and even some have said i had a profound impact on their life. Wow.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  5. #45
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I think the ticket is that Fe is social glue, though best when authentic as well, definitely, it's used to smoothen things over and keep the peace, especially in groups. Fi is what it is, the only thing it's really got going for it is that it's genuine and authentic. It also somewhat feels like the connection you have between lovers, in that it inspires trust, and loyalty, vulnerability, and opening up to one another, at least, ime. Those things are incredible, but they have to happen in an environment that is completely safe. To disarm someone like that while being careless with their fragile state is...negligent at best. To manipulate with Fi feels like an oxymoron, though it is possible to enhance your own genuine enthusiasm to create a desired effect. To use that effect to gain something from someone and potentially harm them in the process is a breach of trust that's often irreversible, not to mention cruel, and ultimately the exact opposite of what Fi is supposed to do.
    Is this the source of the need for authenticity in ENFPs? The desire to be true to what we feel and honest in its expression-thus preventing abuse of an Fi connection?

    Is this also part of the reason we innately have such a strong defensive reaction when the poor entps start picking at Fi? (I know I dont look like it but it pokes the crap out of me too.)

    Also-Amar can you help me-you mention that once you recognize what Fi action generates a certain response, you can repeat in the future. Where are the boundaries for this? (No attack at all, I really have no idea where to draw boundaries.) I find I am horrifically appalled by the idea of using Fi in a manipulative way-but this is a result of familial experiences where Fi was misused as a tool.

    Z-why is it so distasteful from your perspective that the OP would be manipulative? (I seem to recall an entire thread discussing INFJ/ENTP manipulation skills) No judgment-just questions.

  6. #46
    Senior Member pyramid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    I'd suggest:
    NPD=EXTPs
    BPD=ENFPs
    HPD=probably ESFPs
    I have been diagnosed as BPD :rolli: but to me the medications are like trying to take a pill to cure my personality type (by the way-- the many varieties meds provided an experience equal to or worse than what they were attempting to cure.) HAH!

    Most of us ENFP are conditioned to be or prefer to be humble, but mania can slip through and cause things to sound hyperbolous to anyone not an ENFP or on the inside of the situation. We are prone to being percieved as narcissistic in this state but as soon as the ENFP realizes they are not being taken seriously, guilt recoils and can lead to wholly underestimating the impact we have on others (backfiring depression).

    anyways OP, understand that you may have the ability to develop these interactions. There will be Fi/Fe confusion over if you are flirting or not.

    Recognize the hurt the confusion may cause and learn to curb your natural inclination as to not mislead others or be sure to direct them clearly if there is confusion.

    It is a good question to ask. Amar has often spoken of the ability to induce Fi emotive tendencies in another-this will feel like deep affection for them. I did this without realizing it for a long time, but it more of a tentative fashion. It makes ISTJs smile and feel nurtured, but didnt seem to be confused for anything more.
    not everyone that gets ENFP-struck has a romantic view but this is a first step in re-vamping communication skills, for sure

    However if you use those connections in a manipulative fashion, you will hurt them. Other types do this all the time, and it is just accepted. Somehow I feel ENFPs are under a higher obligation not to do this. I dont know why.
    re: Higher obligation
    I feel existentially and morally bound to living by example. I am very careful about how I make jokes and try not to contradict myself without exposing the paradox at hand. Political correctness and loving kindness are not enough for me. I make my own brand of positive thought and live it! If you want to be in a bad mood around me I will absolutely allow it, but good luck!

  7. #47
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Interesting contrast-our emo shouldnt be used to harm and should be authentic and true, but yet when we are authentic to our emo, we get slammed for emo displays. I dunno...interesting thoughts to chew on.
    By who though? Do you mean Fi emo specifically getting slammed?

    I have to say IRL I haven't had this happen to me in a specific "anti-Fi" way. I think IRL when I have gotten flak for being "emotional" it didn't matter whether it was Fe or Fi, I think irl you get slammed (and specifically for me as a woman) for being "emotional" period.

    I don't think in general people irl are savvy to the nuances and reasonings for emotional displays, nor do they care - either they are accepted or they are not. Or maybe some people accept crying (sadness) from some types but not yelling (anger) in others, etc. Some people just don't like emotional displays or emotionality in general, some people find emotional displays to be signs of weakness and something vulgar.

    Not really much I can do about that and frankly after a point I can't accomodate everyone else in the world and their specific comfort levels with emotion and personal expressive styles. But, as an adult I don't necessarily feel targeted or punished for my "Fi displays"...not in this way at least.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  8. #48
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Is this the source of the need for authenticity in ENFPs? The desire to be true to what we feel and honest in its expression-thus preventing abuse of an Fi connection?
    For me, the reason behind it is that I don't like reigning myself in. I like being me and being accepted for it. I yearn for people i can be that way with. And I will return this to that person. The bond that this creates is utter bliss to me. Honesty and authenticity at that point are vital, especially when you grow close.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Is this also part of the reason we innately have such a strong defensive reaction when the poor entps start picking at Fi? (I know I dont look like it but it pokes the crap out of me too.)
    They bug me because they twist my words and read things into them, motivations that i supposedly have that hadn't even crossed my mind. I used to go back and wonder if I truly was as evil as they seemed to think, that I somehow was blind to that part of me, but on other things where I knew they just misunderstood, the frustration would build because no matter how many times I tried to explain how it worked for me and tried to show why ididn't have the motivations they believed me to have, it never worked, it just made them more paranoid. At some point, my heart just hurts from all the accusations they seem to believe about me without any shred of evidence, with me apparently having no way at all of clearing these misundertandings out. That gives me a terrible migraine and breaks my heart. That they're capable of believing such things about me, especially if they know me rather well, or should.


    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Also-Amar can you help me-you mention that once you recognize what Fi action generates a certain response, you can repeat in the future. Where are the boundaries for this? (No attack at all, I really have no idea where to draw boundaries.) I find I am horrifically appalled by the idea of using Fi in a manipulative way-but this is a result of familial experiences where Fi was misused as a tool.
    Well, it's a matter of trial and error. I kinda learned coz when I was 17, I hung out with a group of predominantly guys, usually older than me (I feel more comfortable with men due to my past). And my natural demeanor: being open and friendly and smiling..seemed to make them feel happy and giddy. Made them feel appreciated. And they were great guys. I noticed teh effect it had, and how it came about. Hell, some even told me flat out that i'd made their day. What a small effort it is, then, to, when yo usee them, make them feel happy again. It's this time on purpose, but no less genuine. You like them, you wanna see them happy as it makes you happy, and you know that your smile can make them smile....why on earth wouldn't you do that?

    I generalized it to other behaviors as well. My primary objective is to make people feel happy, instead of numb, bored, stressed, ... Coz, that bounces back at me and makes me feel good. so yeah, I am being selfish, but I only enjoy it, if they do. My personal gain is a side bonus. One I've come to fairly acturately predict and expect in some situations, but still, not the main objective. Win-win situation for all

    What are the parameters? Well, I just see the resemblances between situations. Those guys, when I was 17, were just looking for some attention and a kind word. Guys these days are still that way. I also know that guys tend to get a lot of rejection, that most women won't even give them the light of day, especially if they're not that skilled at the smooth talking. But those guys are still great people. When I notice someone like that, and i see what potential they hold, I start with an open attitude and a smile, to give them some confidence, and listen to their intent, not the way in which it was brought. That alone can already do so much for their self-esteem and make their day. Each person is different, true, but ther are some universal bodylanguage signals, some universal urges we all share. i start with those as parameters, to identify the situation, then I tailor it as things progress to the person in front of me
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  9. #49
    Cat Wench ReadingRainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
    I have been diagnosed as BPD :rolli: but to me the medications are like trying to take a pill to cure my personality type (by the way-- the many varieties meds provided an experience equal to or worse than what they were attempting to cure.) HAH!
    From a perspective as a Psych student - behavior therapy is way better than pills (for BPD). Way way better. I dated a ENFP with BPD...it was bad..very bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    St. Stephen took rocks and St. Sebastian took arrows. You only have to take some jerks on an internet forum. Nut up.

  10. #50
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
    I have been diagnosed as BPD :rolli: but to me the medications are like trying to take a pill to cure my personality type (by the way-- the many varieties meds provided an experience equal to or worse than what they were attempting to cure.) HAH!

    Most of us ENFP are conditioned to be or prefer to be humble, but mania can slip through and cause things to sound hyperbolous to anyone not an ENFP or on the inside of the situation. We are prone to being percieved as narcissistic in this state but as soon as the ENFP realizes they are not being taken seriously, guilt recoils and can lead to wholly underestimating the impact we have on others (backfiring depression).
    This sounds familiar. I seem to exhibit BPD like characteristics when I try and be in relationships-so I have always avoided them and am actually very stable IRL as a result. but yeah, some of the BPD things-bit too close to home when I try and connect with Fi.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    By who though? Do you mean Fi emo specifically getting slammed?

    Not really much I can do about that and frankly after a point I can't accomodate everyone else in the world and their specific comfort levels with emotion and personal expressive styles. But, as an adult I don't necessarily feel targeted or punished for my "Fi displays"...not in this way at least.
    I work with many EXTPs-they pick up on very subtle cues-and it stresses them out so if they sense emo they retreat. not like fits of anger or crying, good forbid, just even subtle stuff, like not having a happy day.

    Also any emo in the workplace is horrifically frowned upon in the corporate world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    For me, the reason behind it is that I don't like reigning myself in. I like being me and being accepted for it. I yearn for people i can be that way with. And I will return this to that person. The bond that this creates is utter bliss to me. Honesty and authenticity at that point are vital, especially when you grow close.

    They bug me because they twist my words and read things into them, motivations that i supposedly have that hadn't even crossed my mind. I used to go back and wonder if I truly was as evil as they seemed to think, that I somehow was blind to that part of me, but on other things where I knew they just misunderstood, the frustration would build because no matter how many times I tried to explain how it worked for me and tried to show why ididn't have the motivations they believed me to have, it never worked, it just made them more paranoid. At some point, my heart just hurts from all the accusations they seem to believe about me without any shred of evidence, with me apparently having no way at all of clearing these misundertandings out. That gives me a terrible migraine and breaks my heart. That they're capable of believing such things about me, especially if they know me rather well, or should.

    I generalized it to other behaviors as well. My primary objective is to make people feel happy, instead of numb, bored, stressed, ... Coz, that bounces back at me and makes me feel good. so yeah, I am being selfish, but I only enjoy it, if they do. My personal gain is a side bonus. One I've come to fairly acturately predict and expect in some situations, but still, not the main objective. Win-win situation for all
    yes to the being accepted for what you are. Totally get that.

    I do what you do but almost only with IXTJs. I glow and shine so they will be happy. I cant trust the NTPs quite the same way, cause I always kinda knew the boundaries were not the same. i did once confuse an INTP, then had to text him to clarify. but I knew-cause he looked at me funny..

    The bolded-This is where things get so weird. What do we call this-the nudging-I almost feel like this is tied to the innate authenticity we feel bound by. We CAN do these things, but we seem BOUND not to do them in a way that hurts other people intentionally. But yeah, I can totally see why the criticisms would hurt.

    A lack of intent-such as the Fe/Fi miscommunication issues is very relevant and I can see the ENTPs having some valid points and experiences to share on that regard. That seems to be something an enfp would have to grow into or be educated on.

    Interesting-Fe doesnt have the same guidelines about "intent" we seem to have. For me a lack of intent, almost always equates to total forgiveness. I dont think the same rule holds true for the ENTPs. This may be another point where we get tangled on.

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