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  1. #171
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Oh, don't worry about that air of expediency: that's just your inner xNTJ, who has already figured out your problem for you, and is ready to execute. It helps to focus on Te at that point, because it's Te that is good at presenting facts and details and showing how they all fit together into a coherent whole, cf. my video in another thread.
    I can learn to use Te better with less bitchiness, but it can be very hard to tone down Ne. Otherwise everything just spills out-with a decided emo flavor. THE ENFP VP is very successful, EE, and is the closest I have seen to someone like me. We both can be impatient and skip steps and exhibit annoyance, with massive facial expressions, when in reality we are just trying to think out loud. We are both awesome at identifying problems but the INTJs have that Se to actually drive them to a real solution. I dont have that so often dont feel a drive to follow through with in the same way. I dunno.

    (My entp was on the phone with him while he was driving with his kids on vacation. At one point he went totally ape shit crazy and yelled at the kids for about a minute then hung up on her. My long lost twin.)

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I understand this Fi-feeling of other people. It isn't in the eye contact, though. It's more like I get this feeling of who they are, what they're about. I don't read their mind or their emotions, but their essence. I can find that essence and then, what I try to do, is "touch" it in a caring, attentive way. It's like touching them with my feelings. Since taking the advice usually works, I say afterward, "See? It feels better, now, right?"

    The whole time, the picture in my head is one of gently holding the other's essence, gently nudging in a certain "direction" to learn something new.
    Yeah the essence sounds right. A question-when the person is not in front of you can you still "feel" this essence if you try? Sounds odd i know.

    Functional Nudging:
    Amar is very skilled at Fi nudging and I can sorta do it but only to IXTJs-then just glowing at them, so they glow too. Or by touching the INTJs-like gently on the face or with a hug. So Fi can induce Fi in others.

    INTJs seem to be able to induce Ni in others as well, just via the words you are using, the tone. This works for my hyper Ne brain but not certain how widespread it is among others. This Ni-slowdown can last for hours and is very relaxing. It isnt Si though-that feels like work to tap into.

    I can help my ISTJs use Ne a bit more when they get really stuck in Si land. I help them see all the positive possibilities.

    I think the Fe users can induce Fe glow in each other too, but cant speak for them.

    It's interesting yet worthy of awareness so that we dont manipulate others in a bad way to feel things or do things they normally would not.

  2. #172
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Yeah the essence sounds right. A question-when the person is not in front of you can you still "feel" this essence if you try? Sounds odd i know.
    Yes. I think it's sort of an Ni/Fi thing. There's a pattern I match that cannot be put into words. I can still feel my Mom.

    Functional Nudging:
    Amar is very skilled at Fi nudging and I can sorta do it but only to IXTJs-then just glowing at them, so they glow too. Or by touching the INTJs-like gently on the face or with a hug. So Fi can induce Fi in others.
    I'll have to ask Amar about that sometime. I'm still not sure I've fully explained what super-competent INTJs would ever want to do with her. Such humility.

    INTJs seem to be able to induce Ni in others as well, just via the words you are using, the tone. This works for my hyper Ne brain but not certain how widespread it is among others. This Ni-slowdown can last for hours and is very relaxing. It isnt Si though-that feels like work to tap into.
    Hmm. I find that when I get Ni and Te into sync, it becomes very persuasive in a non-Fe way: everything I say just "makes sense" and people are convinced as much or more by my apparent competence than by the facts I present. If I had to use an analogy, I'd say it's like listening to Bach, where all of the notes are kind of weird and don't seem to make sense, but then you listen to it as a whole, and it makes perfect logical sense, sounding more like T than F.

    I can help my ISTJs use Ne a bit more when they get really stuck in Si land. I help them see all the positive possibilities.

    I think the Fe users can induce Fe glow in each other too, but cant speak for them.
    I think Fe actually responds quite well to Fi, if it's positive. Basically, I use Ni/Te/Fi, and the Te/Fi can kind of seem like Fe to them. The main difference is I don't "feel it" in the Fe way, but Te+Fi seems to communicate a fairly clear Fe message. I've always had more problems with Fe people online than in real life.

    It's interesting yet worthy of awareness so that we dont manipulate others in a bad way to feel things or do things they normally would not.
    Well, it isn't "manipulation" if it isn't done consciously. Sometimes people just have weird chemistry with each other. I.e., it's more like "co-dependency" than "manipulation."

    But yes, you are correct, it's by focusing on Fi, and focusing on the warmth of Fi that I have gained some remarkably positive results. Kind of like this:

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzOIhLJ1C-Y"]For years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.[/YOUTUBE]

  3. #173
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yes. I think it's sort of an Ni/Fi thing. There's a pattern I match that cannot be put into words. I can still feel my Mom.
    I do this all the time. Once I form an "essence" connection with another I always feel like part of them is with me-even if I decide to shut them out of my life or just never see them again. So I always "feel" close to them and "feel" love for them. I can also sort of "feel" people I may not love deeply but am found of and care for. I assumed it was an Ne/Fi thing.

    I once read about an neat thing INTJs do-you guys will be so good at planning and anticipating via NiTe that you will map out conversations in advance in your heads and anticipate and plan for all variants in the discussion.

    Except sometimes some INTJs forget they actually didnt have the discussion??? Then get mad when the action items are not complete? I read it in the careers and type book so this one isnt just me making stuff up. I dont recall seeing this happen, but I thought it was kinda funny.

  4. #174
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    I do this all the time. Once I form an "essence" connection with another I always feel like part of them is with me-even if I decide to shut them out of my life or just never see them again. So I always "feel" close to them and "feel" love for them. I can also sort of "feel" people I may not love deeply but am found of and care for. I assumed it was an Ne/Fi thing.
    Which is but one of many pieces of evidence why I think Ne and Ni are the same thing, that one either has N or not, and the "strength" of just Ne or just Ni is in proportion to the strength of the corresponding judging functions, more or less.
    I once read about an neat thing INTJs do-you guys will be so good at planning and anticipating via NiTe that you will map out conversations in advance in your heads and anticipate and plan for all variants in the discussion.
    Oh, God. I do this all the damn time. That video I made went through several iterations. There's a ton of things I left out just because they wouldn't logically fit.

    And yet again, there's a dancing analogy. It's a bad habit of new leaders to try and learn every possible trick/move that they can, as soon as they can. But what makes the dancing good isn't how many tricks you can do, but how well you do the tricks you do.

    A sample video (not of me, but of a pair of very very very good dancers):
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN7mJacHLlg"]Perfect salsa dancing[/YOUTUBE]

    No fancy tricks, just great dancing. There's a gazillion moves they could be doing, but they just do a very few moves very very well, and it is far more effective than trying to include everything.

    Except sometimes some INTJs forget they actually didnt have the discussion??? Then get mad when the action items are not complete? I read it in the careers and type book so this one isnt just me making stuff up. I dont recall seeing this happen, but I thought it was kinda funny.
    Sort of. I've run into this with INTPs on occasion, where they're sure they've told me something, and I'm quite sure that they hadn't. They had the discussion in their head.

    For my part the error is the other way around. I'm so used to repeating the discussion in my head, that I forget that I've already conveyed the message a few times already.

  5. #175
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Which is but one of many pieces of evidence why I think Ne and Ni are the same thing, that one either has N or not, and the "strength" of just Ne or just Ni is in proportion to the strength of the corresponding judging functions, more or less.
    That's interesting--can you discuss this some more?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #176
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    That's interesting--can you discuss this some more?
    The long and the short of it is that with T vs F, it really matters whether one is Te/Fi or Fe/Ti in terms of being able to communicate well. Yet there seems to be no corresponding Ni/Se or Ne/Si grouping. N vs. S is a much longer bridge to cross to achieve mutual understanding.

    So, my hypothesis is that the "real entity" is "just N" or "just S". The e/i orientation appears to only reflect the judging function orientation.

    In other words, why is it that INTJ is matched with ENFP and not ESFP? In theory, ESFP and INTJ share the exact same functions, and should get along even better than ENFP and INTJ, where ENFP has Ne vs the INTJ's Ni.

    The point of commonality is intuition, not the orientation of the intuition function.

    Personally, I'm fairly strong in Ni, Te, Ti, Ne, Fi. My Ti and Fi use Ne, not Se. I can become INTP-ish or INFP-ish, depending on which I use. I would never be mistaken for xSFP or xSTP ... or xSxx of any sort.

    So, from personal experience with my own functions, and from observing others, and from the Kiersey temperament observations, I'd have to say that intuition is just intuition, and sensing is just sensing, and the e/i is mere symmetry, and not an inherent property of intuition or sensing.

  7. #177
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Hmm. I find that when I get Ni and Te into sync, it becomes very persuasive in a non-Fe way: everything I say just "makes sense" and people are convinced as much or more by my apparent competence than by the facts I present. If I had to use an analogy, I'd say it's like listening to Bach, where all of the notes are kind of weird and don't seem to make sense, but then you listen to it as a whole, and it makes perfect logical sense, sounding more like T than F.
    I can feel this when INTJs start to do it-even in text. It makes my puppy ears perk at an odd angle, and I sort of peek at you out of the corner of my eye. I can feel my choice is being influenced and it creates the tiniest bit of hesitance. At this point I can always choose not to follow along but mostly the assertion is correct, but it's like I leave mental sticky flags posted at these points in convos, just in case I have to re-evaluate later.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Which is but one of many pieces of evidence why I think Ne and Ni are the same thing, that one either has N or not, and the "strength" of just Ne or just Ni is in proportion to the strength of the corresponding judging functions, more or less.

    Oh, God. I do this all the damn time. That video I made went through several iterations. There's a ton of things I left out just because they wouldn't logically fit.
    I dunno-My Ne will depart the solar system of "logical fit" in about three seconds. For instance I thought about making a video but on the fashion question I felt the need to explain about this dress I saw in a window in breda and why the scallops were like ocean waves, but if I wore it I would need to be barefoot on the wet muddy ground. I would dance in the cobblestone streets as to be amazingly beautifully adorned in delicacy yet grounded into the cold harshness of reality, which is equally beautiful, at the same time. But then I would take the hands of my lover and kiss his face, taste his lips, and spin through the air like a little kid. Yeah Ne leaves the local area of questioning very quickly. Fashion-meh.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    In other words, why is it that INTJ is matched with ENFP and not ESFP? In theory, ESFP and INTJ share the exact same functions, and should get along even better than ENFP and INTJ, where ENFP has Ne vs the INTJ's Ni.

    The point of commonality is intuition, not the orientation of the intuition function.
    I disagree-but what may make this work very well is how well developed the judging functions are-the ability to translate between the Ni and Ne seem very important.

    However I think Ni and Ne remind be of a closed universe at times. They may seem to be rapidly diverging in their own ways, but at the end they meet back up at the same conclusion. I cannot emphasize how much I learn from Ni users though. The see things I cant see.

  8. #178
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    I can feel this when INTJs start to do it-even in text. It makes my puppy ears perk at an odd angle, and I sort of peek at you out of the corner of my eye. I can feel my choice is being influenced and it creates the tiniest bit of hesitance. At this point I can always choose not to follow along but mostly the assertion is correct, but it's like I leave mental sticky flags posted at these points in convos, just in case I have to re-evaluate later.
    I think this is one way in which Te starts sounding very Fe, and tends to irritate Fe and Ti and (to some degree) Fi.

    What I think happens is that (as you mentioned before) INTJs play the conversations out in their heads over and over again. We've removed everything that we deem incorrect, we've removed points that detract from the main point, and it all "just fits together."

    However, a listener might have their own understanding of the topic, and become rather irritated by the presentation, especially if one disagrees. It's even more annoying that the presentation makes so much sense, creating kind of a cognitive dissonance. Usually it's in the case of nitpicking a particular example case, because stipulating the example as being true can sound as if one is advocating that the example is true.

    What I try to do in my presentations is to make clear the assumptions upon which my statements rely, and show a train of thought from point A to point B. I think that train of thought is what becomes so persuasive (and annoying), because Ni is used to swapping out assumptions and sets of rules on the fly. For others, it doesn't sound like a sample hypothesis and conclusion, it sounds like a definitive statement of the truth.

    The funny thing is, I'm not trying to "influence your choice." I'm trying to present my thoughts as clearly as possible, so that you might judge them to be true or false on their own merits. As long as you can restate what I said in your own words, and I recognize that you understand what I've said, agree or disagree, I consider that to be success.

  9. #179
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The funny thing is, I'm not trying to "influence your choice." I'm trying to present my thoughts as clearly as possible, so that you might judge them to be true or false on their own merits. As long as you can restate what I said in your own words, and I recognize that you understand what I've said, agree or disagree, I consider that to be success.
    This is exactly the point of having a discussion.

  10. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think this is one way in which Te starts sounding very Fe, and tends to irritate Fe and Ti and (to some degree) Fi.

    What I think happens is that (as you mentioned before) INTJs play the conversations out in their heads over and over again. We've removed everything that we deem incorrect, we've removed points that detract from the main point, and it all "just fits together."

    However, a listener might have their own understanding of the topic, and become rather irritated by the presentation, especially if one disagrees. It's even more annoying that the presentation makes so much sense, creating kind of a cognitive dissonance. Usually it's in the case of nitpicking a particular example case, because stipulating the example as being true can sound as if one is advocating that the example is true.

    What I try to do in my presentations is to make clear the assumptions upon which my statements rely, and show a train of thought from point A to point B. I think that train of thought is what becomes so persuasive (and annoying), because Ni is used to swapping out assumptions and sets of rules on the fly. For others, it doesn't sound like a sample hypothesis and conclusion, it sounds like a definitive statement of the truth.

    The funny thing is, I'm not trying to "influence your choice." I'm trying to present my thoughts as clearly as possible, so that you might judge them to be true or false on their own merits. As long as you can restate what I said in your own words, and I recognize that you understand what I've said, agree or disagree, I consider that to be success.
    Really what tends to get under my skin is that the presentation is very convincing, but doesnt fit reality. What you say doesnt mesh or sit right with what I noticed and my example cases are me comparing it to reality. You have removed everything that is not correct to the point where there is a dissconnect with reality.

    The way it comes across to me is exactly what you said of people being impressed by what you say and agreeing with the train of thought, but the train of thought does not match reality. I see this alot in some of the ISTPs on here and it rubs me the same way.

    I know as I whittle things down I am always comparing it to my perception and trying to combine both perception and logic everystep of the way which slows me down alot. I try to give alot of personal examples. This may be what I pick up is that I dont sense a perception check with what is said, but more of just a check on what is said.

    When I do this with Fe and focus on just what is said I feel the same exact way and feel like I mislead as it tends to disconnect with reality. Trying to learn when this is ok and when this is not ok. I begin to word things based on content and presentation as opposed to reality and it pretty much always focuses on feelings as opposed to logic when I do this.

    edit: This is not an everytime thing, just every once in a while and tends to be more when people bring themselves into the picture and possibly things dont align as you lose the self portion because of the focus on conversation.
    Im out, its been fun

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