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  1. #91
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
    billionaires are people who choose to keep that much money. people's birth-given appearance is different.

    sometimes you feel peolpe don't listen to you because they are staring at your boobs, and other times you feel like you will never get someone to fall in love with you for the right reason because the stupid shell is there.

    I sympathize not with that article about exhibitionists/performers who know they are being stared at and their complaints about superficiality.
    Uh huh, and if you're unattractive then sometimes you wonder if anyone will ever fall in love with you (or even want to date you) at all. Who's getting the short end of the stick here? Not you.

    And if everyone is constantly staring at your boobs instead of listening to you, it's probably because you're not saying anything worth listening to. You think they'd be paying more attention if you were ugly? If you weren't physically attractive you'd probably be more insecure than you are now. The other side's grass always seems greener, but in this case it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
    The only thing being attractive gets you is drunker at the bar.
    Utter, 100% unadulterated bullshit. The article clearly explains a variety of advantages attractive people have over unattractive ones in nearly every area of life. There are tons of little opportunities being pretty will get you that you don't even realize you wouldn't have gotten if you weren't.

    Just consider the opposite end of the spectrum for a minute. What's worse on your self-esteem: too many people constantly thinking you're attractive, or nobody ever thinking you are?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #92
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    just so it's clear...i am so NOT an unpopular kid envious of the cool kids! haha

    i am saying i find it very uncool for well liked people to complain about it...big difference.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  3. #93
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    Rather it would imply that you have a more nuanced distribution of responsibility on both ends than the immature black/white judgments.
    Can you imagine a teenager who hasn't thought one of these two hyperboles?: Either "The others are to blame, because they never understand me!" or "I always make things go wrong. I should just shut my face for ever!"

    It's a trial and error process, getting practice before mastery... a learning curve of emotional cause and effect. It's quite okay provided that you don't get stuck in defensiveness.

    Hug to all Fi-apprentices...
    and hugs to you as well. How long does it take to overcome the boomerang-effect-black/white-it's all my fault/it's all your fault effect? I can rationalize my way endlessly about why what I feel is "incorrect"-but it doesnt change what I feel. It just prevents feeling. I dont understand how to add gradiation to feeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
    Even though I want not to be the center of attention, sometimes just being relaxed in my body is "too much" for the environment. I am putting whatever out there externally so I can relax and not feel a need to justify or explain my difference because you can pick up so much of "me" right away. On this end it feels like a courtesy to let you know I am an intense person and some of the things I love before you speak with me and discover my intensity.
    This-I feel the need to be very honest about what I am as I do not want to mislead others into thinking I am more normal than I am. I would rather be terribly honest than hide my soul. It doesnt transfer into flirting for me, but i feel the same sense of oddness. Like I am packaged in a bundle that doesnt fit. If I could I would explode and become one with everything (Ne anyone?), leave behind these strange ties to the real world. I would dissolve into the stars. I would care and touch others without them ever understanding I had been there watching over them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I guess if I were an ENTP, I'd give it the ENTP Te shrug. But sadly, I'm still an ENFP with strong T tendencies. So from one NF to another... some of you guys need to relax a little and not get too analytical and overly moralistic about stuff.
    You mean the ENTP Fe shrug?

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    just so it's clear...i am so NOT an unpopular kid envious of the cool kids! haha

    i am saying i find it very uncool for well liked people to complain about it...big difference.
    Yeah, I'm definitely not envious of the OP...I'm not sure why that even came up actually. There are plenty of other reasons why people can be annoyed with someone besides "jealousy." I don't even know esoteric wench, how many friends she has, or what she looks like, so envy is definitely not a factor.

    I just have my opinion, and think it would be cowardly of me to not be straight forward about it. Sometimes people need to hear things they don't like (including me).

    I seem to recal, btw, Marm, that you were annoyed with the fact that men constantly hit on you, in vent.
    Expressing annoyance with an immediate situation is not the same as making an entire thread about something. I never sat in vent and said "wow these guys hit on me because I'm ENFP and I'm special and I'm hot." I know for a fact that the same guys hit on a lot of other females on this forum, regardless of their type, and that it doesn't make me special. Furthermore, I acknowledge responsibility for one of my old avatars drawing attention to my physical appearance...so it's not like I'm saying I'm a victim, because I surely am not. I attention whore occasionally. I admit it.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    ^Right. Blame it on NF "moralizing" when there were at least a couple of non-NFs that had similar responses.
    Yeah, there were NTs who shared similar opinions.

  6. #96
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Yes, and refusing to take responsibility for it after becoming aware of it (as OP clearly has) is kind of like someone having a sweet tooth ... or even a problem with alcohol ...and continuing to binge on sweets or get drunk more often than they should while expecting to be exempted sheerly for being aware that it's something they do. No. You don't just take responsibility for it verbally, you learn to think about what you're doing to other people, and curb it in a bit.
    Obviously I don't have the benefit of knowing her (or you) in person, but my understanding is that Esoteric Wench has started to realize it and is looking for perspective on why it happens, advice on how to approach things differently, that sort of thing. I think she is trying to understand and take responsibility, or else why would she have begun this thread in the first place?

    In response to the original post, I don't know that I've necessarily had this particular problem that the EW brings up, because I seem to recall in my experience that I've been on both sides of the issue here - thinking particular interactions were more important than the other person did and vice versa. When I realize that the other person doesn't think our interactions have been as profound as I do, I do feel a little sad, although I find that sort of thing impacting me less as I've gotten older. Probably learning to be more secure in myself. When I realize that someone else is in that position, I do feel a little bit of awe or reverence or something that something so seemingly mundane could be so profound. But then again, more and more each day I am realizing that mundane and profound are not so far apart as we would think.

    Errr... I sort of wandered. I guess maybe the next question, for marmalade.sunrise, or anyone else: what are ways to be more aware of ones impact on others, to curb it in, so to speak?


    Has anyone ever seen the movie Off the Map (2003)? I think Joan Allen's character is a great example of this kind of thing. Warm, welcoming, open, compassionate, willing to share meaningful experiences, but really firm in her boundaries.

  7. #97
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I do not recall ever saying anything about envy/jealousy. Perhaps I wasn't perfectly clear. Allow me to explain:

    What I really dislike (and please note I am speaking in general terms here, not about this specific topic) is when disadvantaged people start claiming that they have the monopoly on suffering: ie. "pretty/rich/famous/popular people CAN'T possibly have problems". Its so ignorant to think that. Yes, any idiot can see that they do have a great many advantages in life over the rest of us, however this doesn't mean that they are in anyway EXEMPT from problems of their own. Maybe their issues are a whole lot smaller than everyone else's but how exactly are you going to measure that - its subjective to their experience. Remember, everyone's problems, no matter how big or small, are real to them. Of course there are some people out there constantly bitching and complaining about their issues in a unreasonable manner, way out of proportion to their actual significance. These people need a serious reality check. But before you start pointing fingers, take a look at yourself because we all do this to some degree. I'm pretty sure my problems seem petty and self-indulgent to someone really suffering in Sudan, because comparatively, I'm living in paradise.

    OK, back to the specific topic at hand. I don't think this thread was ever meant to be treated as a huge, momentous issue. It was probably intended as light discussion, not the overblown "woe is me" session some are proclaiming it to be. As for the unwanted attention issue, I do think that there may be a fair argument that ENFPs bring some of this on themselves. Whether or not this is conscious and intentional is up for debate. But I don't see why we need this hysterical and antagonistic response to the issue even being raised. Especially when the no one here has actually arrogantly bitched and indirectly bragged about their popularity in the manner people here have been complaining about. Nor (as far as my memory serves me) have the ENFPs who have admitted to being in a awkward situation with regards to unwanted attention, claimed that it is a huge and significant problem for them. This negative response is simply way out of proportion, and to me there seems to be a lot of projecting of personal issues onto the OP. The title (which seems to be the major source of contention) may have been a little inappropriate but did people stop and think that it was a case of exaggerated facetiousness for effect? I did, and I'm a 'over-sensitive' INFP :rolli:. Instead people jumped to conclusions, overreacted and started a type assassination (some ENFPs included) even after Esoteric Wench clarified her intentions.

    I'm just astounded at all this. Can't we just play nice?

  8. #98
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    ^Agree

  9. #99
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I'm just astounded at all this. Can't we just play nice?
    Not when we're on the internet and people want to "win" discussions we can't.

    People will think these things regardless, take on an inferiority complex to cope with what they want and don't have in the moment.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  10. #100
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I do not recall ever saying anything about envy/jealousy. Perhaps I wasn't perfectly clear. Allow me to explain:

    What I really dislike (and please note I am speaking in general terms here, not about this specific topic) is when disadvantaged people start claiming that they have the monopoly on suffering: ie. "pretty/rich/famous/popular people CAN'T possibly have problems". Its so ignorant to think that. Yes, any idiot can see that they do have a great many advantages in life over the rest of us, however this doesn't mean that they are in anyway EXEMPT from problems of their own. Maybe their issues are a whole lot smaller than everyone else's but how exactly are you going to measure that - its subjective to their experience. Remember, everyone's problems, no matter how big or small, are real to them. Of course there are some people out there constantly bitching and complaining about their issues in a unreasonable manner, way out of proportion to their actual significance. These people need a serious reality check. But before you start pointing fingers, take a look at yourself because we all do this to some degree. I'm pretty sure my problems seem petty and self-indulgent to someone really suffering in Sudan, because comparatively, I'm living in paradise.

    OK, back to the specific topic at hand. I don't think this thread was ever meant to be treated as a huge, momentous issue. It was probably intended as light discussion, not the overblown "woe is me" session some are proclaiming it to be. As for the unwanted attention issue, I do think that there may be a fair argument that ENFPs bring some of this on themselves. Whether or not this is conscious and intentional is up for debate. But I don't see why we need this hysterical and antagonistic response to the issue even being raised. Especially when the no one here has actually arrogantly bitched and indirectly bragged about their popularity in the manner people here have been complaining about. Nor (as far as my memory serves me) have the ENFPs who have admitted to being in a awkward situation with regards to unwanted attention, claimed that it is a huge and significant problem for them. This negative response is simply way out of proportion, and to me there seems to be a lot of projecting of personal issues onto the OP. The title (which seems to be the major source of contention) may have been a little inappropriate but did people stop and think that it was a case of exaggerated facetiousness for effect? I did, and I'm a 'over-sensitive' INFP :rolli:. Instead people jumped to conclusions, overreacted and started a type assassination (some ENFPs included) even after Esoteric Wench clarified her intentions.

    I'm just astounded at all this. Can't we just play nice?
    i agree with you that nobody is exempt from problems...i have even had the experience of my phone ringing off the hook with people wanting to do stuff and feeling like i was constantly letting someone down because i didn't have enough time to do stuff with everyone...i have even experienced dealing with being hit on more than i'd like...i get a lot of the things being discussed here and i'm sorry if my responses seemed overly rude to anyone...but i took issue with the cold delivery of the op and was responding to that...it seemed mean to the people who liked her and i didn't like it.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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