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  1. #41
    Sniffles
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    Listen to fidelia, she knows what she's talking about!

  2. #42
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Unfinished business is huge. My ISTJ father avoids discussion at all costs, which is very difficult for my ENFJ mother who NEEDS it to get done with anything. It's like putting someone in a barrel and then closing up all the knotholes in the barrel so they can't breathe even a bit!

    I have seen a trend in the kind of people that I have tended to date in the past (strong, smart, secretly insecure and not good with showing vulnerability). They typically are the ones to break up, but with no proper explanation and closure. There is inconsistent behaviour which indicates that they regret having broken up, yet a lot of other behaviour after which makes me question who they really were in the first place. This is the worst kind of lack of closure and only wears off after years of no contact and still remains as Domino said, like markers in an ancient battlefield. In the one friendship that broke off in an unexplained way, it still bothers me, although it is easier to let go of.

  3. #43
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    I feel really loved when the time/effort I've spent on you is recognized (i.e. being thanked, being showed appreciation through reciprocity, etc) although I would hesitate/feel guilty to receive it at first.

    Also, please keep in mind that most of the ENFJ's communication is established based on the assumption of us reaching out to you.

    I spread my attention and affection pretty widely among the various people that I care about. Most of them tends to be introverts (cause I can relax around them better and not act all energetic like I do around extroverts..so draining after a while!!), so I guess me reaching out to them is sufficient of interaction between us...we would have a good time together, until I initiate another arrangement. It's fine the way it is, but when those same people call me to meet up or just hang out, it makes me feel good...almost to me like a proof that I'm being a good friend. Though we tend to be the ones throwing the balls when communicating, what we really want is for you to be throwing the balls back at us.

    One way to really make me like you is for you to create an environment for us that says "you can be comfortable here and be yourself here."

    I (college student), for example, have many mutually exclusive groups of friends (i.e. business school high achievers/social climbers, computer science nerds, humanities hippies, etc). In fact, I pride myself in my ability to approach these separate groups and becoming one of them, but we do it at a cost of losing the sense of ourself--who we really are. I can only "act like myself" when I'm in my apartment by myself, but really, I want to share that actual personality with some of the closest people I care for. Yet, it's so hard to do that because when I'm outside, it's a compulsion to leave behind my actual identity and make myself "one of theirs" so that I can understand others better. Long stories short, if you can break an ENFJ's cycle and say, it's ok to be yourself in front of me, and create a welcoming environment for that, you will be forever a memorable person in an ENFJ's life (it sounds like I'm exaggerating but it's true!).

    I, for myself, have found a comfortable environment where I can act like myself and not worry about "fitting in" with others...or so I thought. It turned out, some non-platonic feelings and unexpected situations had developed overtime and made the whole environment wretched and unbearable. I lost my connection to the group, felt unwanted/unwelcome, and ended up having to cut my ties off entirely with a group of friends that I shared 80% of my time with for half a year. The feeling of emptiness was.. overwhelming to say the least. I lost my motivation to do things (like school work or socializing with people), I lost my ability to relate to others...I just could not see the world the same way I did before. I'm still not 100% recovered yet, and it still brings me to tears when I think of how much those group of friends meant to me and how comfortable we were with each other when things were going fine (it really did feel like a family). And what really gets me is the fact that they don't seem to share that feeling (at least they haven't attempted any measures to salvage the situation and invite me back into the group).

    Sorry for the digression towards the end, but I think the central theme in loving an ENFJ is to revert back the attention he/she gives you back to him/herself. A good imagery would be like the drawing of the sun...we divert our energy in all different directions, all the time. It's our way of seeing the world, we can't help it. At times we want to rest...but we still want to feel bright, just not because we're emitting light, but because others' lights are shining on us. That's the only time when we feel like we can relax and rest, and still be healthy (we need to be bright to feel healthy...otherwise we get depressed).

    Gosh how did I come up with that analogy? Sorry if it was confusing, I'm not poetic by nature, but hope you got a sense of it.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    ENFJs suffer from an inordinate sense of guilt, IME. Anything you could do to alleviate that probably would be useful. My ENFJ mother also really needs to be allowed to talk to get things dealt with. Although they are not conflict avoidant, other people's unhappiness seems to very much impede their own ability to feel happy (Fe, I guess?). I dunno. The ENFJs I know are greatly helped by someone sharing the emotional load of either big projects they have taken on or their sadness/concern/care for those closest to them. I don't know if this is typical or not though. I'd be interested to read any other ENFJ responses on this.
    Fidelia you're dead on for this. Seeing my friends suffer and shelled up drains my mood, and feeling my friends' excitement energizes me as well. Our immediate response when seeing someone we care for go through hard times is to offer our help. Do you need to talk? Why do you feel that way? We naturally assume the role of Dr. Phil. Come to think about it, maybe consuling others in trouble is in it of itself a way to bring up our own emotional state by helping others feel better (because when others feel better you feel better too!). I can totally see myself doing that, other ENFJs what do you think?

  5. #45
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think similarly, ENFJs are more likely to risk someone's potential wrath by pointing something out or bringing up something they believe will cause harm to the other person if not addressed (much more than an INFJ would). They are more aggressive in doing good (rather than cautiously waiting to be invited in) and also find it more difficult not to express strong feelings on an issue. At the same time the ones I know are pretty sensitive to and aware of how other people feel and sometimes undergo agonies after saying something in wondering how to fix the "damage" they feel they could potentially have caused, although it was an issue that they were compelled to say something about. They put their money where their mouth is and if they give advice, they will follow it through to the end in helping the other person. Some of the most energetic, capable, hospitable, reaching out, kind people I know are ENFJs.
    Likes xXMariahXx liked this post

  6. #46
    Not Your Therapist Sinmara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasdf23 View Post
    Fidelia you're dead on for this. Seeing my friends suffer and shelled up drains my mood, and feeling my friends' excitement energizes me as well. Our immediate response when seeing someone we care for go through hard times is to offer our help. Do you need to talk? Why do you feel that way? We naturally assume the role of Dr. Phil. Come to think about it, maybe consuling others in trouble is in it of itself a way to bring up our own emotional state by helping others feel better (because when others feel better you feel better too!). I can totally see myself doing that, other ENFJs what do you think?
    I find the bolded very interesting when thinking of the ENFJ I know. He's a conservative republican member of the NRA who tries to be as much a manly-man as possible, but ALL of his women friends immediately fit him into the "best girlfriend" slot and gush to him about their life and relationship troubles. It never fails, he not only gets friend-zoned right off the bat, he gets the Honorary Vagina Award. Mind you, he complains about them treating him like their girlfriend, but he's part of the problem because he talks to them at length about their problems with a sympathetic ear. He feels compelled and even obligated to do the Dr Phil thing for everyone because he can't turn them away when they appear to need his help.

    Now, I mention this because my relationship with him is nothing like that whatsoever. I don't burden him with huge emotional problems that make him feel helpless because he can't do anything to fix it or make me feel better. In fact, I'm the one he goes to when he's feeling down and needs someone to talk to because I'm the only one he feels comfortable enough with to show his vulnerability. Everyone is so preoccupied with their own problems and are so thankful that he's there to talk to that they fail to see that he might need to talk about his own problems too. It's all very one-sided.

    ANYWAY, I need to get to my point someday, so here it is -- even though I've observed that ENFJs are acutely aware of and concerned with the well-being of their loved ones and will do the Dr Phil thing if they need to talk, I've also witnessed the downside of this and I've seen how playing the psychologist role could take its toll on them and become a burden after a while.
    Never wrestle with a pig. You will get dirty and the pig will enjoy it.



  7. #47
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    Forgotten or retained, I can't rest easy in any one scenario. People stick to me like pests to fly paper. My love was corporeal, remains so in my memory. My Se demands a touchstone, so the memories never fade and stand like markers dotting an ancient battlefield where you can still find bullets and bones. I both cling to and resent this.
    I do have some closure issue where I am left ricocheting between different scenarios when I don't have an explanation. Sometimes I will understand it, but the problem there is that it steals my thunder to be able to feel any anger because it makes too much sense. That has helped me realize that understanding isn't always equivalent to closure - or perhaps it will be after I gain more.

    Although I am old enough to be a little burnt out by it and will tend to look for the simplest explanation and hold to it as close enough. Sometimes I'll have an occasional adrenaline rush wondering if I let the person down or blindly made a mistake. I have a history of people responding to me with social disinterest. This later occurred with romantic interests, and I've had significant relationships in which the other person just lost interest and drifted away. After decades of analysis I think it has some simple elements. For starters, people just do this in their relationships to others because of their own lives. Also, I don't usually challenge people emotionally or instill much emotional fire into a relationship which is boring for some people even if just subconsciously. The part of me that is interesting is rather abstract, so I have to be able to have a meeting of the minds. I'm also distant enough by nature that people aren't sure what to do with me. After everything though, I do think that if a person doesn't spend time it implies some kind of lack of interest to do so. I'm not exactly hurt by it, although in some sort of vapid, nebulous way there is some hurt, but moreso I see it as part of life and so my disappointment in the end is a constructed pain inside my mind.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #48
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasdf23 View Post
    Though we tend to be the ones throwing the balls when communicating, what we really want is for you to be throwing the balls back at us.

    One way to really make me like you is for you to create an environment for us that says "you can be comfortable here and be yourself here."
    These are perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by lasdf23 View Post
    I lost my connection to the group, felt unwanted/unwelcome, and ended up having to cut my ties off entirely with a group of friends that I shared 80% of my time with for half a year. The feeling of emptiness was.. overwhelming to say the least. I lost my motivation to do things (like school work or socializing with people), I lost my ability to relate to others...I just could not see the world the same way I did before. I'm still not 100% recovered yet, and it still brings me to tears when I think of how much those group of friends meant to me and how comfortable we were with each other when things were going fine (it really did feel like a family). And what really gets me is the fact that they don't seem to share that feeling (at least they haven't attempted any measures to salvage the situation and invite me back into the group).
    I'm glad you went into this description. It's almost exact to my group of friends and reactions at the moment, apart from longer time period and who cut off ties.
    Did you attempt to resolve the situation or withdraw from them completely? I've withdrawn from mine and wanted to (intend to) reach out, but haven't yet. Also, any idea what types they were? Mine are all introverts and mainly dealing with IxTJs. Explaining the overwhelming ENFJ reaction is difficult to people. They either don't understand it at all or don't understand hesitation.
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  9. #49
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I've found that some ENFJs despite being very warm to others are kind of private people. Is that by choice, or is it that others don't tend to take the initiative to dig more? Would you resent gentle digging?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unkindloving View Post
    I'm glad you went into this description. It's almost exact to my group of friends and reactions at the moment, apart from longer time period and who cut off ties.
    Did you attempt to resolve the situation or withdraw from them completely? I've withdrawn from mine and wanted to (intend to) reach out, but haven't yet. Also, any idea what types they were? Mine are all introverts and mainly dealing with IxTJs. Explaining the overwhelming ENFJ reaction is difficult to people. They either don't understand it at all or don't understand hesitation.
    Also -
    It was a slew of things altogether. I lost one of the best friends out of the group while was played by another. At the same time, I saw the relationships amongst themselves and with me, all slowly deteriorate. I attempted to resolve the situation first by reaching out to them, but by that time they were so ill that I felt an impenetrable wall between them and I. Also, they didn't seem to understand the reason and extent why I was so concerned over their well-beings. So gradually we lost that sense of common ground.

    I tried resolving the situation by telling myself it was going to be ok and I should stick to my group of friends...that they were right in feeling intruded by my concerns for them, and that I can work on myself to make the situation resolve. But I couldn't do it. One night I was sitting in their living room, and it all the sudden hit me... hit me that I no longer have a place among this group of people, and that I no longer shared much with them. So I grabbed my stuff, left, and have not been back since. So I guess it was a mutual thing.. we grew apart, and I held on, but when I realized I couldn't do that anymore without wearing myself down, I cut the ties off myself.

    The guys were mostly introverts, I think my (ex) best friend was an ISTJ, the guy who played me was an ISTP. A few others were IXTJ...I believe.

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