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  1. #31
    Glycerine
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    ^ yikes, I am probably enneagram 3 then. I tell people that they are the "best" at [whatever their major strength is] compared to most other people I know, in addition what you said.

  2. #32
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    ^ yikes, I am probably enneagram 3 then. I tell people that they are the "best" at [whatever their major strength is] compared to most other people I know, in addition what you said.
    Well, I am guessing that is a 3 thing....3's like to be impressive, but of course 2's like to be appreciated and 4's like to be special, so either of those w/a 3 wing would probably enjoy that style of expression too.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #33
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I feel the same as Lux about losing someone from my life. Okay if it's mutual distancing, but feel like it's a rejection of me and there's something wrong with me if I still care a lot. Time usually fixes it. Direct talking helps by giving closure and answering questions, but most don't go that route.

    As far as appreciation, it really depends how close we are. However, assuming that you're close:

    - Expressing appreciation in any form. The more specific about what you like, the better.

    - Noticing our efforts to please.

    - Realizing that when we do express a preference or opinion, it probably matters more than we're letting on and we try to generally be pretty easy going and accommodating of others.

    - Allowing us to talk when we are upset, understanding that venting is crucial before we can get on with problem solving. Don't offer help or devil's advocating while we are venting. Sympathetic listening is the appropriate response and you are doing a great service by offering it (without advice). INFJs especially seem to need to verbalize thoughts or problems (kind of like a milder version of House with his team) to come to an effective solution. Just by listening, you will help clarify the problem and narrow down a possible effective solution.

    - Make sure conflict between us can get resolved as it happens rather than shutting us up. We only bother to have conflict with those we care very dearly about. Not allowing us to express the problem will lead to you being distanced, or else lots of emotional conflict that will be unpleasant or annoying to you and which will make us seem oversensitive and frustrating.

    - For INFJs at least, understand that we tend to have delayed processing. What looks like not leaving things alone or fussing over small details actually is just the result of having enough time to think it over and now needing more input/reactions to decide how to carry on from there. Most of our behaviour is based on our LAST interaction with you rather than the current one.

    - For INFJs, when we do occasionally cry in front of you or get mad at you, you should know that it is not about that one little thing. Sometimes we don't want to be petty or wimpy and we overestimate how accommodating or strong we can be. Then something more happens and that is the straw that breaks the camel's back. We don't like being terribly emotional in front of others. When this happens, ask questions and listen receptively and we'll return to normal much more quickly. Don't tell us to quit overreacting!!

    - Sometimes we are overaccommodating of T types, expecting that they will accommodate back for us (T types tend to only offer what they can happily give without expecting something in return). When they don't, we sometimes get difficult. You can help by making the INFJ very aware that they are actually saving you trouble and helping by being blunter and expressing needs more directly. You could also look for where they might be accommodating you and take that into account when you interact. We need to become more blunt, while T types in particular would usually do well to be less blunt.

    - We generally read in between the lines of every interaction. If there are no lines to read between, it may be needful to actually express that.

    - Spend time with us or if you can't, make sure we know that you enjoy our company.

    - Verbalizing mental processes will allow us to give you more space and will keep us from getting needlessly worried about the state of our relationship or friendship.

    - Most things that we talk about are an extension of us. We have an emotional attachment to it, so be aware that criticism of that thing (which you see as separate) can feel like personal rejection. You usually will be bumped back a notch in what you are allowed to see of our inner world as a result.

    - Be careful to temper criticism with greater amounts of appreciation. We take criticism very seriously (I don't think criticism is a bad thing, but too much of it will discourage us and make us feel like you don't think much of us).

    - Allow yourself to rely on us for some things. We like knowing that we can provide for some of your needs, as well as come to you for others, knowing that you will happily do the same for us. (Sometimes one or both parts of this may seem foreign to T types).

    - Many of our decisions are based on what we anticipate others' reactions to be. We are private and easily embarrassed and protective of what matters to us, so keep that in mind. We do like someone who stretches us to make us try new things, while making us feel safe doing so.

  4. #34
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky is BLUE! View Post
    At all?!?!? That is all!!!!!!! When something like that happens, it's just awful. It's not like you'd be bawling your eyes out all the time but it's something that stays with you, I would say, forever. You don't constantly think about it but it's still there and the feelings associated with it can emerge whenever and then it's just...sad beyond belief. The doubts, all the questions circling your mind from time to time, wondering what mistakes were made, blaming yourself and all that.
    +1

    Especially if there was a degree of unfinished business. Especially if you feel like they judged you harshly and wrongly over something. Especially if you wonder if you did the same to them. Especially if you invested in them emotionally, a lot. Especially if you feel like they devalued your relationship with them and prioritized relationships with people who didn't really care much about them or were even bad for them. You can move on to a certain extent without closure and resolution, but it's very difficult and painful and you will probably never succeed in doing it entirely.
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  5. #35
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    What fidelia said.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #36
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    +


    = eternal love
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #37
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post

    +


    = eternal love


    Fidelia: Thank you for your insights! They have been extremely helpful (especially since you took the "T-POV" into account)!

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    - For INFJs at least, understand that we tend to have delayed processing. What looks like not leaving things alone or fussing over small details actually is just the result of having enough time to think it over and now needing more input/reactions to decide how to carry on from there. Most of our behaviour is based on our LAST interaction with you rather than the current one.
    Interesting... I think I do see this pattern in the INFJ. Would you mind giving me an example of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    +1

    Especially if there was a degree of unfinished business. Especially if you feel like they judged you harshly and wrongly over something. Especially if you wonder if you did the same to them. Especially if you invested in them emotionally, a lot. Especially if you feel like they devalued your relationship with them and prioritized relationships with people who didn't really care much about them or were even bad for them. You can move on to a certain extent without closure and resolution, but it's very difficult and painful and you will probably never succeed in doing it entirely.
    Oh noez! I'll try not to distance me E/INFJ without giving them a legit excuse. It's hard b/c I do the distancing thing naturally at times.

    Let's keep le insights coming! I see a dearth of ENFJ's on this thread (in comparison to the INFJ's ).
    Enneagram: 5w4 5-9-2 (5w4 9w1 2w1) sp/so

    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Greg King
    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  8. #38
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, some more - We are fairly independent, but because relationships make up a very important part of our world, we need more reassurance than you likely do. If left with no information but you seem distant, we tend to assume something is very wrong and often that we have something to do with it. We will keep hovering and asking questions until you give us enough information to work with. Mostly at that point, T types feel stifled and annoyed by the hovering and give less information. They also believe that once they've expressed how they feel about someone, the person can assume they still feel the same way until otherwise notified. A little bit of verbalizing what's going on, or mentioning when you'll be "back", or a hint as to what is preoccupying you, will give you a lot more room to move.

    When an INFJ distances themselves, it is usually because something is wrong. However, T types tend to assume they just need some space and will be back. This is generally felt as rejection or lack of care/interest in many cases. Although INFJs need some alone time, it is pretty clear when it is just recharging time or when it is that something is wrong, if the person thinks to look. A quick check is usually all that is needed to verify. If the INFJ says they are okay but doesn't meet your eye or seem convincing, ask more questions. They'll talk if they believe you really want to know what's wrong.

    Time spent alone together is highly valued and says to the INFJ that you are as invested in the relationship as they are.

    INFJs don't really like emotional surprises. This is part of what makes them overaccommodate others (to the point of being a pain at times). They know how much something is likely to bother them and what their reaction will be, whereas they are not as sure about other people's potential feelings/reactions unless they know them really well. The only problem is that they may continue adjusting more than their fair share. They'll talk themselves out of feeling resentful if it gets very one sided, because it's usually only a bunch of little things all put together. However, if that goes unnoticed and the person pushes their luck with another little thing soon after, they may unload on them because they are reminded of all of those other little annoyances that have gone unrecognized and they feel taken for granted.

    The emotional surprises thing also governs why INFJs need more reassurance than T types that things are fine. If there is something on the horizon, the INFJ doesn't want to be blindsided and feel embarrassed or hurt in front of the other person without deciding what to do first.

    INFJs are extremely careful about other people's reactions to them as well, which sometimes to T types can look like being wishy washy or too dependent for approval. It really doesn't come from not having a strong sense of who we are and what matters. It's just that most things we talk about, do, and the people we interact with are expressions of who we are. Therefore, judgement of that done injudiciously feels very rejecting and likely cuts off any further transparency. However, this is also a problem since many INFJs really want to be understood and known inside out by those they are close to. Therefore, it creates a kind of falseness in interactions, or else a very big gulf between the people, which the INFJ really dislikes.

    Regarding the delayed processing - For example, I may talk myself out of feeling badly about something you said one day. There are many different angles I can view every situation from, and I'm fairly good at standing in other people's shoes. However, in my next interaction with you, I may confirm that you unknowingly said something that could have been hurtful, or you may continue scraping away at something that is still a little raw. I may react slightly so that you are aware you are treading on thin ice, but not say it directly. Rather than calling you on it right away (even though I'm feeling both annoyed and hurt by then), I'll mull it over some more because perhaps I just have missed taking something into account, or I'm tired or stressed and I really don't want to overreact. If however, the next time we are together, you still don't get the hint, I may become more emotional than I'd like to be in front of you. I end up embarrassed, you feel like a heel although puzzled because it seems like such a little thing (not realizing it's actually a pile of little things). Ironically, in my attempt to keep from losing credibility with you by overreacting, I save things up until they blow when I least expect it and I'll end up apologizing. If you're wise, you'll take the initiative then to talk things over. Otherwise, we still don't really have things cleared up and I get even more resentful as time goes on about continuously apologizing AND being misunderstood when it is not me that's doing whatever it is.

    On the other hand, the same can also happen for good things. It's kind of like when you gain or lose weight - your choices don't show up immediately, but each small choice does contribute to an end result. Does that make sense?

    Re: Verbal and non-verbal affection - We like both verbal and written appreciation. Written is nice because you can re-read it. I don't know about other INFJs regarding physical affection. I am pretty comfortable with it (as long as I like you) and am quite affectionate, although unlikely to initiate (I hate imposing in most regards, and so will wait till I'm very sure any kind of contact, whether physical or verbal is wanted. The only exception is when I'm worried about the state of our relationship. Then I will initiate whatever kinds of contact has been in our relationship to gather further information and gauge whether it's me or something else that's causing a problem. When the T type disengages verbally and physically, I'll assume that I'm the problem, which may not be the case. I do that because that's how I'd show I'm upset with someone.).

  9. #39
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    ENFJs suffer from an inordinate sense of guilt, IME. Anything you could do to alleviate that probably would be useful. My ENFJ mother also really needs to be allowed to talk to get things dealt with. Although they are not conflict avoidant, other people's unhappiness seems to very much impede their own ability to feel happy (Fe, I guess?). I dunno. The ENFJs I know are greatly helped by someone sharing the emotional load of either big projects they have taken on or their sadness/concern/care for those closest to them. I don't know if this is typical or not though. I'd be interested to read any other ENFJ responses on this.

    WHOOPS: I forgot to clarify that I am not speaking for all INFJs, but rather for some general trends I have noticed in myself and which some other INFJs have confirmed. However, it is of course based on my own experiences, which I realize are likely different than other INFJs'.

  10. #40
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Fidelia/Robin Hood hits the bull's eye, once again.

    Unfinished business is the worst. The worst. Last night, I had a dream that my ENTP ex-bf was standing on the other side of my truck, talking to me across the bed and saying all those exposing things that he could never bring himself to say to me. I woke up so hurt and sad that I wanted to gore something.

    Because of the cruel vagaries of the subconscious, I try to generate my own closure in the waking hours to alleviate the suffering. It ranges from "he's probably fat and drooling on his shoes" to "he's happy and forgotten all about me", "he loved me and the truth is enough" to "he loved me and the truth isn't enough - it's NOT enough".

    Forgotten or retained, I can't rest easy in any one scenario. People stick to me like pests to fly paper. My love was corporeal, remains so in my memory. My Se demands a touchstone, so the memories never fade and stand like markers dotting an ancient battlefield where you can still find bullets and bones. I both cling to and resent this.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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