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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser View Post
    NT chiming in... I'm a little surprised there aren't more NFs dissenting in this thread. I always thought cold-hearted justice was more of a T thing, with F's having a reputation for forgiveness and mercy.
    Forgiveness, to a point. After that, I'll be actively looking for ways to make you wish you hadn't been born. And I won't lose any sleep.

    Believe it.

    It's only happened once, and I didn't have to do anything except ignore her. She had a stroke. Karma is a bitch.

  2. #52
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser View Post
    NT chiming in... I'm a little surprised there aren't more NFs dissenting in this thread. I always thought cold-hearted justice was more of a T thing, with F's having a reputation for forgiveness and mercy.

    Those of you who do want people to get their comeuppance, do you think that's more about justice or revenge? I know it's a thin line sometimes, but to me justice implies a dispassionate if/then proposition (this person committed X crime, and therefore must suffer X consequence), whereas revenge is more personal (this person hurt my family/friend/self and so I want to hurt them).

    One is cold-hearted and from the head, while the other is passionate and from the heart. I'm sure Fs and Ts are capable of both reactions, but I would expect more Ts than Fs to be attracted to the former, and more Fs than Ts to the latter.

    Are you more interested in the global or the local? I remember asking an INFJ friend a hypothetical question: if you accidentally killed someone, ran them over with a truck or something -- someone has to die -- who would you want it to be that you had removed from this world? I chose a dictator who had committed human rights abuses and the INFJ chose an old enemy from school. Don't know whether that's illustrative or merely anecdotal, but I'd be interested in people's opinions.
    My take on this would be that an NF in pain is in SO MUCH pain that they have to lash out. And also, the offended sense of justice, which is a big thing for us.

    To me it is about justice, not revenge. Iím not just saying that to make myself sound better. I donít really like the idea of revenge Ė on the basis of my beliefs, and also, I donít like hurting other people even when theyíve hurt me. Itís more the feeling Ė if youíre going around hurting people and being an asshole, you SHOULD be made to see the error of your ways. You SHOULD have to make amends. You should not do jerky things, and then go off and have good times and get what you want out of life. Itís just not right.

    But the weird thing is, even if some of that involves the person getting hurt, I wouldnít want to be the one who hurts them. Maybe that makes me a bit of a hypocrite, Iím not sure. On the very few times in my life that Iíve lashed out at someone in anger, it was probably somewhat justified, though probably also a bit over the top, and in any case not the best way to handle the situation. But if I had the feeling that Iíd hurt their feelings by doing this, I felt bad. On the other handÖwhen I heard that my ex-boyfriend and his wife were splitting up, while I didnít go ďhee heeĒ, and I tried to take the view that marriage breakups are always pretty much bad (what I believe), I still had a bit of a feeling that the balance had been redressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biaxident View Post
    Forgiveness, to a point. After that, I'll be actively looking for ways to make you wish you hadn't been born. And I won't lose any sleep.

    Believe it.

    It's only happened once, and I didn't have to do anything except ignore her. She had a stroke. Karma is a bitch.
    I actually wouldn't have thought INFPs could be so scary. I thought INFJs were scarier.
    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    I know what you mean.
    I have come to see forgiveness as learning to see the offender the way you did before the offense took place. Which doesn't mean to be naÔve. Jesus still asked Peter three times: "Peter, do you love me?"
    That's a really good, and Christian, approach. I think it's a problem for me though where I feel like I was wrong about the person before. Like, I really saw them through rose-coloured glasses. Or they were the kind of person who hides what they are.

    I am realizing that I don't really know how to forgive people who I believe are toxic for me, and who I don't really want in my life any more. Maybe it is just about letting go the resentment?
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post


    I actually wouldn't have thought INFPs could be so scary. I thought INFJs were scarier.
    I'm very live, and let live. But once a certain line is crossed, all bets are off.

    That's what some people don't seem to understand. They find it amusing, and look down their noses, because we don't care what you do, as long as you aren't stepping on other people, or our internal mores.

    Being teased never bothered me. But when it becomes physical, or starts interfering with my life, or the life of someone I care about. Or whatever I am doing to make money to survive.

    Then you crossed the line.



    Even people I dislike, don't normally cross the line.

  4. #54
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    I can get pretty vengeful, but my confidence in karma increases as the years go by.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  5. #55
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser View Post
    NT chiming in... I'm a little surprised there aren't more NFs dissenting in this thread. I always thought cold-hearted justice was more of a T thing, with F's having a reputation for forgiveness and mercy.

    Those of you who do want people to get their comeuppance, do you think that's more about justice or revenge? I know it's a thin line sometimes, but to me justice implies a dispassionate if/then proposition (this person committed X crime, and therefore must suffer X consequence), whereas revenge is more personal (this person hurt my family/friend/self and so I want to hurt them).

    One is cold-hearted and from the head, while the other is passionate and from the heart. I'm sure Fs and Ts are capable of both reactions, but I would expect more Ts than Fs to be attracted to the former, and more Fs than Ts to the latter.

    Are you more interested in the global or the local? I remember asking an INFJ friend a hypothetical question: if you accidentally killed someone, ran them over with a truck or something -- someone has to die -- who would you want it to be that you had removed from this world? I chose a dictator who had committed human rights abuses and the INFJ chose an old enemy from school. Don't know whether that's illustrative or merely anecdotal, but I'd be interested in people's opinions.
    I don't think of it as revenge, cold-hearted, or forgiveness. I question the existence of free will, and if it does play a role in people's decisions, then it is constrained by circumstance. Because I can't determine to what extent a person actually owns their choices and behaviors, I can't understand the role of punishment as a reaction. The destructive nature of people needs to be addressed and the problems it causes solved, but this should not involve rage or personal revenge.

    I see the desire for punishment and revenge as the symptom of the disease of cruelty. The problem with every act of cruelty is that it is perceived as justice regardless of how warped that perception is. There are two poles that demonstrate how this revenge is settled. The first is direct in which the exact perpetrator of the violation is punished back to the same degree they caused harm. We often see this as justice. The second form of revenge is indirect in which a person who serves as a proxy for the violator is punished. We see this as cruelty. This is the process by which the abused become abuser of a new and innocent victim. I'm not convinced the two processes are fundamentally different. Both are trying to create an inner sense of balance. Both see their victim as guilty - in one case it is direct and arguably more rational, but in the second case, the proxy is seen as having the same potential to cause harm because of sharing similar traits. Using a proxy is sometimes preferred because they are not as threatening as the original violator.

    The external act of punishment has something of a different quality between these two processes, but internally it is the same. Externally it is not opposite because in both cases it requires tunnel vision and a process of dehumanization in order to justify the act. In the end every behavior is at the end of a long cascade of dominos. Every act is merely a wave which has been acted upon and is acting upon. To stop this process of cruelty does not require blind forgiveness, but it does require an end to the chain of punishment and violation.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #56
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    In these situations it can certainly be difficult for me to tell if I'm coming more from a perspective of wanting to see justice done and imbalances redressed, or if I really just want someone to get screwed over like I feel they screwed me over.

    That does worry me.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    No worries, I wasn't offended at all by your first post.

    In the situation with the INFJ, do you feel like explaining a bit more? Is it the INFJ who is not willing to accept responsibility and who seems to be off having fun? I didn't quite get that from your post.
    Yeah I can see how I did not articulate quite as fluently as I could have

    What the situation is .. it seems the INFJ has not taken repsonisbily at all for her role in the breakdown of our friendship.
    And some of her behavior after the breakdown, might be a reaction to my reaction of the breakdown.

    My reaction was to take actions and make some decisions that would suggest I don't care at all what she thinks or feels, But that might be the whole point..
    I don't want her to know how upset I might be or even how sorry I might be.
    Instead I would rather show that I can grow without her.

    Which made my whole point to your point .. that behavior can't always be taken at face value.
    And that, while you are wishing someone ill will for what appears on the surface. maybe there is deeper meaning for their behavior.. maybe they are doing it for you, not against you.
    It's possible that whatever happened between you and the other person was a catalytic moment in their life and their growth and any subsequent success might be result of that.

  8. #58
    is an ambi-turner BRMC117's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post


    Yes, burn, burn, burn!!!!


    O_O

  9. #59
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Exit View Post
    Yeah I can see how I did not articulate quite as fluently as I could have

    What the situation is .. it seems the INFJ has not taken repsonisbily at all for her role in the breakdown of our friendship.
    And some of her behavior after the breakdown, might be a reaction to my reaction of the breakdown.

    My reaction was to take actions and make some decisions that would suggest I don't care at all what she thinks or feels, But that might be the whole point..
    I don't want her to know how upset I might be or even how sorry I might be.
    Instead I would rather show that I can grow without her.

    Which made my whole point to your point .. that behavior can't always be taken at face value.
    And that, while you are wishing someone ill will for what appears on the surface. maybe there is deeper meaning for their behavior.. maybe they are doing it for you, not against you.
    It's possible that whatever happened between you and the other person was a catalytic moment in their life and their growth and any subsequent success might be result of that.
    Sorry you have been in that situation. And, I think I see what you are getting at. The last paragraph... This is where being able to read people's minds would occasionally be useful.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Sorry you have been in that situation. And, I think I see what you are getting at. The last paragraph... This is where being able to read people's minds would occasionally be useful.
    Thank you for your sympathy.

    Yes!! reading minds would solve many of these types of situations.. But since most of us can't .. There is always the tried and true method of "communication". But for this to work . Both people would need to be at a point of growth where true forgiveness could be rendered and received by both parties(something you and KLessard were touching on).
    No blame and true objectivity .. OUCH!!.. not an easy task for the wounded F

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