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  1. #11
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Eyebrows View Post
    It seems like what you're describing is overall bitterness caused by bad experiences rather than the sense of "justice" described in the OP, but I'm not sure. The difference, as I perceive it, is that the stimulus-response in the OP situation is much more direct. Let me know if I'm misunderstanding you.

    I'm talking about that "no one fucks me over and gets away with it" standard. And the scenario the OP describes is alien to me, since if you wrong me in anyway ...I will immediately point it out and deal with it in that same moment. I don't let it fester inside. And because I don't...there is no such thing as the case of someone consistently fucking with me. Retribution should be served in the moment if at all. Otherwise it's just too machiavellic for my taste.

    So I would say the stimulus-response in the OP situation (you are talking about he deals with people that wronged him right?) is not AT ALL direct. If you want justice...serve it swiftly and fairly in an impartial manner. Don't wait for "karma" to take care of it. The world isn't inherently fair, and there are plenty of naive people out there. At least just as many as there are assholes. It's up to each one of us to deal with reality for ourselves.

    Just, personally, I try to let go of any sort of less-than-merry thought for other people. I prefer to strengthen myself rather than hope they become weaker at some point. And it's also about trying to defuse hate as a concept in my life and in those whom I interact with. Call it buddhist evangelization if you want

  2. #12
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    If it wasn't against my religion and I didn't have a strong sense of self-preservation I could see myself becoming a regular angel of vengeance.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #13
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I'm talking about that "no one fucks me over and gets away with it" standard. And the scenario the OP describes is alien to me, since if you wrong me in anyway ...I will immediately point it out and deal with it in that same moment....
    It's not always possible to deal with it immediately. For example, if you're in a meeting and there's a strong difference of opinion the best route is to deal with it privately and professionally between those who have the difference instead of dragging everyone else into it. You can come across as needlessly disruptive, defensive and sensitive.

    Also, with more subversive behavior you often have to build a case against the problem person, aka the paper trail. I know that I've experience aggressive behavior via email where you have to take into account the nebulous nature of written communication. Oftentimes, once you establish a pattern then you can confront the person. Sometimes dealing with it privately doesn't net any results and you have bring in a third party to mediate between you and the other person.

    Bottom line is you have to figure out when something needs to be dealt with immediately and when it's better to take an alternative route. I'm not saying you're wrong but it doesn't always work the way you've described, especially in a workplace atmosphere.

    So I would say the stimulus-response in the OP situation (you are talking about he deals with people that wronged him right?) is not AT ALL direct. If you want justice...serve it swiftly and fairly in an impartial manner. Don't wait for "karma" to take care of it. The world isn't inherently fair, and there are plenty of naive people out there. At least just as many as there are assholes. It's up to each one of us to deal with reality for ourselves.
    Can you give me some contexts or situations where you see this approach working well?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I'm talking about that "no one fucks me over and gets away with it" standard. And the scenario the OP describes is alien to me, since if you wrong me in anyway ...I will immediately point it out and deal with it in that same moment. I don't let it fester inside. And because I don't...there is no such thing as the case of someone consistently fucking with me. Retribution should be served in the moment if at all. Otherwise it's just too machiavellic for my taste.

    So I would say the stimulus-response in the OP situation (you are talking about he deals with people that wronged him right?) is not AT ALL direct. If you want justice...serve it swiftly and fairly in an impartial manner. Don't wait for "karma" to take care of it. The world isn't inherently fair, and there are plenty of naive people out there. At least just as many as there are assholes. It's up to each one of us to deal with reality for ourselves.

    Just, personally, I try to let go of any sort of less-than-merry thought for other people. I prefer to strengthen myself rather than hope they become weaker at some point. And it's also about trying to defuse hate as a concept in my life and in those whom I interact with. Call it buddhist evangelization if you want
    Good thoughts. I fully agree with trying to let such offenses go. There's a certain degree of unhealthy mental attitude that's associated with wanting to "get back" at another person.

    As proteanmix states, when offenses must be dealt with, there are situations in which an immediate response is best, and there are others in which it's not. It takes wisdom to determine the best way to respond in a given situation, and, many times, it also requires knowledge that we can't possibly have.

    I tend to err toward not dealing with offenses immediately as they arise. This comes from feeling the need to fully analyze and understand the situation, wanting to find a diplomatic way to deal with them, not wanting to offend the other person, and knowing that we all have a natural human tendency to get defensive and build a wall if these things aren't brought up tactfully.

    I also tend to have this constantly lingering feeling that there is always a way that I can contribute to the solution to the problem between us--that I am partly the problem, that I should have the strength and wisdom to come at my side of the problem--and so I probably bend too much. I'm sure this leads to some unforeseen resentment at times, and thus avoids one problem but causes another.

    There are times where it was beneficial that I waited because I didn't have a full grasp of the situation at that time and would have made a mistake by confronting the other person with a non-issue, and there are times where I should have dealt with the situation more swiftly.

  5. #15
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yeah, it's happening in a situation I'm currently trying to get myself out of. At this point the only way to defuse and detach is to leave and that's what I'm doing.

    On a lighter note, I hope everything burns to the ground and the ashes spread to the four winds!
    I emotionally detached from my workplace last month. The whole place could melt down around me and I wouldnt care. meh.

    Compassionate detachment is a wonderful thing.

    As for hoping others get what is due to them? I dunno, I try to follow a rule of minimum harm. I really don't want to see other people hurt, even if they deserve it. I think part of this is due to my own understanding of the pain i could inflict on another. I understand I could hurt them and it hurts me.

    Fi sucks. To see someone else hurt would mean I would have to totally detach from Fi. I have a hard time not feeling their pain.

  6. #16
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    Poetic justice definitely appeals to me. But I refuse to let myself dwell on the negativity too much, that is not good for me in the long run. I wouldn't be bothered to plot some intricate plans to get even with people either. I'm more like, sitting back, observing people get what they deserve (which they rarely do in reality but I like to envision that some day they will get everything coming to them, cause and effect and stuff like that).

  7. #17
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Apparently this arises for me occasionally out of an offended sense of justice. Or just a desire to see others suffer.

    I'm unlikely to do anything much about it, but if someone has really hurt my feelings, offended me, wronged me in an extremely serious way (which probably involved a lot of ongoing unacceptable behaviour), it drives me nuts if they then go on their merry way and seem to be perfectly happy and getting everything they've always wanted out of life. (If they have managed to offend me that much there is usually strong evidence to suggest that they have managed to do the same to others, so it might not be just about me.)

    There's part of me that would just like to see them get zapped by karma or something similar. Some people say to me that people who behave really badly will always reap what they sow, but sometimes it takes time.

    Do you have any comments on your experience with these type of feelings, their validity, how you can defuse them etc?

    Seriously, if I were a really vengeful person and willing to do something about it, there are a few people I've known who I might have done something really nasty to by now!
    The count of monte cristo springs to mind. Excellent film!

    I'm not a huge fan of revenge but i have tasted it's sweetness on one very special occaision.
    Generally i'd leave it up to our old friend "Karma".
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  8. #18
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    I am patient with my vengence and am often rewarded by watching them go down in flaming glory. It's almost like screwing me over has some kind of curse attached or something... Me likes it
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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  9. #19
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    It's not always possible to deal with it immediately. For example, if you're in a meeting and there's a strong difference of opinion the best route is to deal with it privately and professionally between those who have the difference instead of dragging everyone else into it. You can come across as needlessly disruptive, defensive and sensitive.
    If I'm being provoked, I don't really care who I'm dragging along with. I will reply in the most appropriate way I can think of, and will talk with the peron after the meeting and deal with him/her accordingly.

    Also, with more subversive behavior you often have to build a case against the problem person, aka the paper trail. I know that I've experience aggressive behavior via email where you have to take into account the nebulous nature of written communication. Oftentimes, once you establish a pattern then you can confront the person. Sometimes dealing with it privately doesn't net any results and you have bring in a third party to mediate between you and the other person.
    You're again talking about the work environment, which has it's own particularities. But if I just gotten an email inside the office, and the person was there, the first thing I would do would be to confront that person. I wouldn't really need to be justified by my boss or anyone else to act upon it.
    If things, got tricky, I'd still have the email as evidence.

    Bottom line is you have to figure out when something needs to be dealt with immediately and when it's better to take an alternative route. I'm not saying you're wrong but it doesn't always work the way you've described, especially in a workplace atmosphere.
    Well, as ever this is a matter of Fi. The context doesn't matter, respect is respect. Sure, I can get problems by dealing with it my way, but I prefer to deal with the consequences if it means upholding my values. I often know how to defuse the situation in the the cleanest way possible.

    Can you give me some contexts or situations where you see this approach working well?
    Well everywhere really. I'm the guy that you meet for the first time, and will seem abrasive to you, because I might speak my mind as if I knew you already. But why makes excuses, or ease people in, if they are gonna have to deal with me in the end? I find the solution to most of these cases (and the OP did talk about actually being emotionally hurt et all) is prevention. You act completely transparent, and people know from day one how they should, and most importantly how they shouldn't approach you. And if you show you have strong convictions and aren't afraid of confrontation, they'll probably not even ever feel compelled to mess with you.

    And yes, believe it or not, I still can make friends with FJs

  10. #20
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    :confused:

    When did it become about Fe or Fi? I didn't mention those concepts, really didn't think they had much bearing and another ENFP didn't seem mention it as a Fe/Fi thing.

    I stated it's context dependent and you believe it's context independent. Sometimes the best strategy is not immediately saying anything because people make themselves look foolish and dig a deep hole for themselves without you having to say a word. I'm not advocating being a pushover, I'm advocating knowing when to move. If moving immediately works in that context then do it, but I don't think that's always the route to go. It's not about being afraid of confrontation, conflict, or indirect. Confrontation will occur and an explanation of what went wrong is expected.

    Also, I've seen people keep trying to one-up each other and both of them look like idiotic children. You saying your piece doesn't make the other person cease from saying theirs. Matters escalate and spill into other areas because no one knew how to put the brakes on and take matters privately or their pride and sense of being disrespected keeps them from moving away from the situation towards other means of resolution.

    Outside of the professional environment, do what you do and if it works continue on.

    ETA: Here's a personal example of when I think moving immediately works.

    I was in CVS last week dropping off a prescription. There was someone with the pharmacist and I left a good six feet of space between me and the other person for reasons of privacy. This lady came and stood in between me and the person in front of me and I said, "Excuse me ma'am. I'm in line." She said oh and I smiled and nodded. Then when she walked behind me she said, "You're standing so far away I couldn't tell what you were doing." I thought to myself, should I ignore this bitch or say something? I really never decide not to say anything when I'm not at work so I told her, "I believe in giving people privacy. But I'll be sure to stand right on your back when you get up there to drop off your prescriptions for any diseases and infections you have." She rolled her eyes at me, I rolled my eyes at her and turned around and that was that. The stakes were low and I didn't care. When stakes are higher and I have to see the person again and again I take a different route.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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