[ENFP] ENFP: The ENFP bitchslap

[Lady_X]

That's why you're supposed to put your unstable Fi on paper, read it, rip out the pages, and throw them away. Or go in a closet and scream.
No good comes from looking/sounding like a nutcase. I know...I've been there.

but the only point is communication...it's not about expected response...it's a just so you know sort of deal.

 

[Amargith]

That's just it, the appology comes from a place where you acknowledge their right to their views. Afterall, I only have my own subjective pov on the world to go on and who says it's better than theirs? They're entitled to theirs and if i can see where they come from, even if I don't agree with it, I will apologize for my behavior. I won't retract my words, but I will restore the social bond going: listen, I handled that wrongly, I can see that now. I still disagree with you and how you hanlded things, but I understand you did what you believed to be right. If it was specifically something that had to do with me (breach of trust or somehow affecting e personally), I'd tell them how I felt about it, calmly and negotiate a new 'social contract' that would accomodate both our povs as much as possible, so that we both stand to gain from it without having to give up our personal space. If not possible, I'll ask them to not repeat the behavior around me for the benefit of our relationship.

 

[Zarathustra]

Really? I wasn't aware that there were people out there who are free of expectations from other people.
There are those that will use different techniques to get their needs met from a certain target, and there are those who will just move and find a more willing and able person.
And there are those who will do both.

I'm not denying that everyone is self-interested; NFPs just would not frame the situation the way you did.

They seem much more willy nilly and free-spirited about the whole thing (which, in all likelihood, deep, deep back there, is some sort of "strategy"), whereas you guys very concsciously look at life much more like a chessboard or strategy game -- trust me, as an INTJ, I'm familiar with the process. I just think you ENFJs, with this strategizing so present and up front in your consciousness, tend to be rather see-through about it, while I find the NFP "strategy", which seems far more subconscious and hidden, to be far more enticing and appealing...

 

[Lady_X]

if there is any sort of strategy going on i would guess it has to do with...how bout you let me be me and i'll let you be you...personal accountability or something...is that strategy?

 

[sculpting]

This is ridiculous! Is this true? That's when you get down on one knee and take the child by the shoulders and tell him/her firmly, "You do not hit, it is not acceptable." (Please resist the urge to add, "You don't want something BAD to happen to you, do you?" as it could be read as a threat in a courtroom.) The mom will usually be so freaked out that you touched her kid she'll gather him/her up and leave. (Make sure to smile sweetly as she glares at you.)

The end result indirectly gives the kid the following boundary: If you hit random strangers you don't get to stay and play. End of story. Which is the message the mom should have given her little sweetheart to begin with.

Now is this an example of Dom Te or Tertiary Fe?

Not "Acceptable" or Not "nice".
Acceptable would be Fe
Nice/kind would be Fi

I have a toddler who is some sort of little Te tyrant-likely an INTJ. He is selectively aggressive-not to kids at the playground or strangers, but has no hesitation in hitting his 14 yo brother and the dogs and even will hit me when very angry.

Tim outs are pointless, hand smacks sort of work.

The best solution? I take his hands and look him in the eyes as say "You hurt the dogs. You have to take care of them as they are your friends. Dont hurt your friends. Hitting them with spoons hurts them." Gently but firmly.

We repeat for the various objects of dog abuse.

Yesterday he looked at me as I called the dog stupid. He said "you have to be nice to the dogs. They are our friends. I dont hit the dogs cause they are my friends." Lesson learned.

Our lesson-Fi showcases pain to force the Te user to feel it. The Te user then learns a new rule about how they shouldnt hurt people.

 

[Venom]

Bab: only when you confess to being ENTJ

I think you're probably the only person left who thinks I'm ENTJ...

 

[Amargith]

I think you're probably the only person left who thinks I'm ENTJ...

My Fi doesn't really care about that

 

[sculpting]

The bolded results in wishy-washyness? As in, waxing emotionally and then apologizing later?

Hmmm. So is the result the same if there was ill intent? Doesn't an apology destroy the positive effects of brutal honesty? I get that it may alleviate your guilt, but relationship-wise, doesn't it result in a lack of boundaries? Or can you apologize and keep the boundary intact? My experience with *unhealthy* (I hate using that word, but I want to make the distinction) is that, in the heat of the moment, they'll do the right thing (subjective, obviously, but still), and then back-peddle because they have that propensity for making allowances for people. Get their catharsis and get right back in the line of fire.

An entp and I were discussing this the other day-intent and how it is involved in forgiveness. We split opinions. From my perspective almost anything is forgivable if there was no ill intent. I apologize, address systematically the issue,then we start with a clean slate with lessons learned. Like Amar said-renegotiate the social contract or request that the behavior occur elsewhere-but all of this must be very directly communicated.

Fe doesnt work quite the same way??? It doesnt matter if you meant to hurt someone or not, the fact that you did hurt someone seems to carry weight and thus not be totally forgivable??? Something about innate social responsibilities?

if there is any sort of strategy going on i would guess it has to do with...how bout you let me be me and i'll let you be you...personal accountability or something...is that strategy?

yeah, just to emphasize all my random ideas on this thread where I call out explanations-They are all after the fact. I do crazy shit, then try and figure out why did I just do that? What could be a rational explanation or a social role this behavior might serve? In the moment-except for learning to "pause" most of this stuff is very natural and almost subconscious, very innate.

 

[Little Linguist]

This thread just makes me GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Okay, carry on.

P.S. That was addressed to those lousy lovey-dovey effing things to our expression of serious anger. RAWRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

 

[Poki]

yeah, just to emphasize all my random ideas on this thread where I call out explanations-They are all after the fact. I do crazy shit, then try and figure out why did I just do that? What could be a rational explanation or a social role this behavior might serve? In the moment-except for learning to "pause" most of this stuff is very natural and almost subconscious, very innate.

So are you saying the voices in your head are subconcious?

 

[Amargith]

AFter enough repetition in the same situation, you *can* use your previous experiences as a databank to access when you need to strategize..kinda like a roleplay. However, it is never as good as the genuinly triggered deal. The best enfp 'strategy' is the combo of both, where you get triggered and you suddenly recognize the situation as something you'v edone before, and use that info to enhance your reaction to increase impact, based on previous data.

In any event, it is better to 'trigger yourself', even in the first situation, than actually fake the entire situation coz that just goes horribly wrong. We're made to 'wing it' or it just wont' feel right, authentic or be succesful. It won't sync up.

 

[Little Linguist]

You think about data? I don't think about data.

 

[BlueFlame]

Not "Acceptable" or Not "nice".
Acceptable would be Fe
Nice/kind would be Fi

Actually, I think there's more to it than that. My son is an ENFJ and he reacts much stronger to the feelings of others than things simply not being *acceptable.* The N in him will always question vague rules. He won't willingly hurt a soul, be it physically, or mentally. When he did hit as a baby, he simply didn't know he was causing pain.

My daughter (probably ESTJ) on the other hand...gah. There's just no getting through to her.

 

[Amargith]

You think about data? I don't think about data.

Grin..I do..about certain things that Ive figured out and systematized. I see how cause and effect takes place and replicate the situation as to get the same effect

 

[Little Linguist]

Nope, no data. I'm data-less. Fully lacking in data. Data-deficient. In short, I don't have Jack crap for data.

 

[Poki]

Nope, no data. I'm data-less. Fully lacking in data. Data-deficient. In short, I don't have Jack crap for data.

You could be like me, full of it, but cant force it no matter how hard. You just gotta wait for it to come out naturally

 

[sculpting]

Originally Posted by Happy Puppy
Always. For me-maybe because my Fi is not mature-pain felt by someone else is always far, far worse than my own pain. If you put me in a situation where my inadvertant actions have hurt another person, I am overwhelmed with their pain, waves of guilt and remorse.

I can distance myself from my pain and rationalize it and effectively wall it off. I cant do that for reflected mirrored pain if when I have no control over the situation. I cant resolve the pain of the other-thus get trapped in a very unhappy place.

I dunno, that sounds more like Fe hurting than Fi hurting to me...

I am the most Fe blind person you will meet. That is why I will pretty much say whatever i think-recognizing it may be odd or nonconventional. I care very little for the approval of others-I do want their respect of my competency-Te and I seek emotional connectivity with a limited number of people-Fi.

The internal distancing above is a tool learned when young-not healthy but handy. Most Fe users-with some of the INFJs being the exception-dont seem to recognize the mirror effect in themselves-rather it seems to be a sympathy more than pure empathy. "I am saddened by your pain" not "I feel your pain".

This "I feel your pain" thing enfps do? It's why the entps go crazy on us. We sense them getting tweaky-anxious, then try and tell them what they seem to be feeling-except we are not properly calibrated for Ti/Fe and they may not themselves be aware, given they may need to logically process before noticing the emotion.

Another part of the problem is that by not using Fi, I have not learned to properly calibrate it against how much pain the other person may actually be in. So it just turns the "pain" volume to the max setting. I also pick up anxiety in others and it stresses me.

 

[Little Linguist]

You could be like me, full of it, but cant force it no matter how hard. You just gotta wait for it to come out naturally

I'm sure a lot of people think I'm full of it, but they wouldn't be talking about data.

 

[Poki]

I'm sure a lot of people think I'm full of it, but they wouldn't be talking about data.

My Fe sympathizes your pain, I hate it when it gets all clogged up.

 

[sculpting]

Actually, I think there's more to it than that. My son is an ENFJ and he reacts much stronger to the feelings of others than things simply not being *acceptable.* The N in him will always question vague rules. He won't willingly hurt a soul, be it physically, or mentally. When he did hit as a baby, he simply didn't know he was causing pain.

My daughter (probably ESTJ) on the other hand...gah. There's just no getting through to her.

Oh- I meant W's approach to the problem. His appraisal-is it based on acceptability of the behavior? I dont really have a firm grasp on Fe, especially in Fe doms, so I can kinda guess at it.

wrt to your ESTJ, another example: The toddler-very good at building rule sets in his mind.

He didnt want to share his toy at the playground. I explained-"if you do not share, you play alone. If you share, you play with a friend. It is your choice." He stood there, looked at me, thought, then he shared. That wasnt about being nice-more about did he want to play alone. Some days he does play alone. His call.

But it amazes me to hear the Fe parents at the playground as they say things I would not, so it's an interesting perspective.


He didnt want to share his toys