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  1. #61
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    ENFP angry behaviour is all


  2. #62
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Oh, dude, no problem-ENFJs drive me insane in real life too, but Proteo has taught me enormously by being very honest in her observations. I can then take the data she supplies and implement productively to modify how I interact with Fe users.

    Same thing sometimes with ENTPs. By taking their sometimes painful observations/frustrations, breaking them down, and trying to understand them it gives me a new perspective on what I already understand. I appreciate this, even though it can hurt at times.

    Yup, all around agree the OP is not the healthy way to resolve issue-yet is a pretty normal ENFP behavior. The best progress I make in my own self improvement is to define step by step models-like in the OP-then plan very explicit strategies so that the next time I feel the innate response, I can stop, rationalize, then logically decide what I want to do, not what biology programs me to do.

    The functions are a generic toolkit-it's much harder to wrap a pattern around things like "anger". What is anger? If I can cloak this in a function I try to-although some things are fairly complex, thus i fail terribly. It can be hit or miss.

    This one feels right via Ne connectivites but I am always open to new interpretations.

    How do you think emotions fit into the context of functions?

    Are the functions without emotion? I dunno... not at all sure.
    I'd have to agree with Babylon to a large degree.

    What you've described is mostly an infuriated Fi. However, I'm not dismissing your hypothesis of a Te element. It's definitely there: you're pointing out real objective things in the world to make your point. Mostly, you're offended that the other party isn't being reasonable, which is almost INTJ-ish. However, there remains a strong core emotional element that is driving the whole thing, and not a small bit of Ne grabbing for every possible scrap of evidence.

    When an INTJ gets angry, we also blame the tertiary (in this case Fi). The immature part for the ENFP is the Te-style expression of the anger: fairly blunt and direct, without the subtleties of an INTJ or ENTJ. The immature part for the INTJ is that the Fi perception is still fairly raw and can explode for seemingly minor slights in weird unpredictable ways, and ironically because it is predisposed to not exploding at all.

    I think, HP, that you'll eventually be successful with your "decide what you want to do" approach. Everyone slowly matures as we gain experience: we just mature from different directions.

  3. #63
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Oh, dude, no problem-ENFJs drive me insane in real life too, but Proteo has taught me enormously by being very honest in her observations. I can then take the data she supplies and implement productively to modify how I interact with Fe users.

    Same thing sometimes with ENTPs. By taking their sometimes painful observations/frustrations, breaking them down, and trying to understand them it gives me a new perspective on what I already understand. I appreciate this, even though it can hurt at times.

    Yup, all around agree the OP is not the healthy way to resolve issue-yet is a pretty normal ENFP behavior. The best progress I make in my own self improvement is to define step by step models-like in the OP-then plan very explicit strategies so that the next time I feel the innate response, I can stop, rationalize, then logically decide what I want to do, not what biology programs me to do.

    The functions are a generic toolkit-it's much harder to wrap a pattern around things like "anger". What is anger? If I can cloak this in a function I try to-although some things are fairly complex, thus i fail terribly. It can be hit or miss.

    This one feels right via Ne connectivites but I am always open to new interpretations.

    How do you think emotions fit into the context of functions?

    Are the functions without emotion? I dunno... not at all sure.
    I dont think the raw functions involve raw emotions. I think a Ti person can be pissed off that someone else isnt being rational. I think a Fe person can be calm about someone else being mean. However, I do think perhaps some types are more likely to wear their emotions on their sleeves. So it might be more likely that a Fe-er will emote when upset and the Ti-er might not emote. However, I definitely do not think an emotional outburst would mean that the ISTP has decided to engage Fe...

  4. #64
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    [QUOTE=Kalach;1079002]Only two? And only those two? So ENFPs are like alarm bells signalling the presence of injustice with mighty roars and table poundings? Fair enough.

    And what if you're wrong?

    That question isn't supposed to be asked, is it. The ENFP siren--fire alarm rather than Parisienne--is a genuine call to action, isn't it. And they're actually not to be questioned because it is their skill to be aware of injustice and inhumanity.

    The bitchslap turns the tide of man's inhumanity to ENFPs man.[/QUOTE

    Good question-I would suggest that to deploy this strategy in an attempt to alter the course of a social group, ie save the masses, you would not see just one ENFP raising the flag-you would see a multitude raising signs.

    However the bitchslap of as of yet to be determined origins is not a healthy response in itself, productive to large scale change. The bitchslap is actually a sign of Fi implosion and overload-a short circuit. Fi mirrors pain. If that pain becomes overwhelming, judgment of all types comes to standstill=paralysis, thus no effective assistance is rendered to those in pain.

    There has to be a jump start to restart the system.

    Assume the Fi users is under maximum pain levels. Fi can no longer judge-only feel pain. If the pain is of a cyclical nature and is unrelenting and cannot be resolved by the Fi user-there is no escape. nothing they can do will fix the problem causing the pain.

    I see the bitchslap as an externalization of that pain-the mirrored pain is spewed outwards as an offensive to neutralize what ever is causing the pain-even if that means kill the messenger.

    Two ways:
    1. Alone-The Fi user spews their Fi pain externally in an attempt to cause the other person to mirror that pain. I could give an example but it would be very painful to most people.

    2. With Te perhaps? ie the bitchslap. The Fi user uses Te to focus anger, make demands, identify a resolution-trying to use Te. Problematically this is in a very high Fi pain state so it may be Te-but heavily contaminated with Fi. Even worse-in this high energy state, the enfp doesnt have time to try and identify risk by risk in a logical Te fashion-thus they make massive assumptions using NeTe to structure the incoming emotive input and connections. The default of an ENFP will be to assume there are unspoken Fe implications-known but not seen or understood-thus to function in a state of maximum saftey the ENFP MUST assume maximum risk, even at the cost of being heavily flawed.

    All spewed forth in a matter of seconds. It's all in the math...

  5. #65
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I suppose IRL it'd work. Big jangly demonstration, very upsetting. It'd work on introverts. Set them right on edge.

    But this is supposed to be effectual in some way? Or it's just explosions?

    I suppose one must ask, who owns the pain? The environment, the offender, the person pained? Who owns it? What pushes who around?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  6. #66
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I suppose IRL it'd work. Big jangly demonstration, very upsetting. It'd work on introverts. Set them right on edge.

    But this is supposed to be effectual in some way? Or it's just explosions?

    I suppose one must ask, who owns the pain? The environment, the offender, the person pained? Who owns it? What pushes who around?
    Primarily explosive to prevent further pain. NeFi = no pain blockade and little to defend against further insult given the all encompassing nature of Ne. It's a visceral response seen after repeated boundaries were crossed and Fi displays ignored.

    Secondarily I 'd suggest a role in teaching Te doms/auxs about Fi. To become responsible leaders in a Te-dom society they must be cognizant and responsive to the suffering of the masses-to whom they are responsible. Te doms/aux are not born this way, they grow into it as Ti doms and auxs do in an Fe-dom society.

    To be responsive they must be able to recognize Fi pain. If a Te user has pushed an ENFP to the point of a bitchslap, they are not properly mirroring the pain via Fi. I would suggest that a cycle may be seen in which the Te users learn to recognize signs of Fi distress, thus instead of pushing the ENFP to the state of a bitchslap instead a cycle of Fi display by the enfp, mirrored Fi by the Te user, then Te requests by the enfp to resolve the Fi displayed issue, and subsequent agreement or further discussion insues. Individual, each person develops to become more logical or more empathic. Both can then be deployed advantageously to the benefit of the larger group.

    In reality, Fi users must grow to always own their own pain and be accountable for the results of their actions. This is maturity in a sense, especially in a mixed Fi/Fe world. It MUST be done. Partially this is accomplished via the ability to pause and reflect upon pain, then decide a course most fitting, as well as the ability to block out the pain of the other.

    Recognize to apply increasing emotional stress without recognizing Fi requests for alieviation will be to cause implosion however even in a mature Fi user.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Good question-I would suggest that to deploy this strategy in an attempt to alter the course of a social group, ie save the masses, you would not see just one ENFP raising the flag-you would see a multitude raising signs.

    However the bitchslap of as of yet to be determined origins is not a healthy response in itself, productive to large scale change. The bitchslap is actually a sign of Fi implosion and overload-a short circuit. Fi mirrors pain. If that pain becomes overwhelming, judgment of all types comes to standstill=paralysis, thus no effective assistance is rendered to those in pain.

    There has to be a jump start to restart the system.

    Assume the Fi users is under maximum pain levels. Fi can no longer judge-only feel pain. If the pain is of a cyclical nature and is unrelenting and cannot be resolved by the Fi user-there is no escape. nothing they can do will fix the problem causing the pain.

    I see the bitchslap as an externalization of that pain-the mirrored pain is spewed outwards as an offensive to neutralize what ever is causing the pain-even if that means kill the messenger.

    Two ways:
    1. Alone-The Fi user spews their Fi pain externally in an attempt to cause the other person to mirror that pain. I could give an example but it would be very painful to most people.

    2. With Te perhaps? ie the bitchslap. The Fi user uses Te to focus anger, make demands, identify a resolution-trying to use Te. Problematically this is in a very high Fi pain state so it may be Te-but heavily contaminated with Fi. Even worse-in this high energy state, the enfp doesnt have time to try and identify risk by risk in a logical Te fashion-thus they make massive assumptions using NeTe to structure the incoming emotive input and connections. The default of an ENFP will be to assume there are unspoken Fe implications-known but not seen or understood-thus to function in a state of maximum saftey the ENFP MUST assume maximum risk, even at the cost of being heavily flawed.

    All spewed forth in a matter of seconds. It's all in the math...
    The bolded is the frustration I read. Its a judgement that the situation is hopeless it results in an attacking defensive manner. It attacks the situation and blames the person by the use of objective detail. I even get frustration in the pain portions of him not responding in the way she wants or wishes him to respond in regards to the initial things as well as the way he is responding after the fact.

    If you notice my response I directly attacked and challenged the person.
    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    your Fi in the initial post sounds like frustration, not rage.

    "How can you not get it, can you be that dense or are you just selfish?"
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    I dont think the raw functions involve raw emotions. I think a Ti person can be pissed off that someone else isnt being rational. I think a Fe person can be calm about someone else being mean. However, I do think perhaps some types are more likely to wear their emotions on their sleeves. So it might be more likely that a Fe-er will emote when upset and the Ti-er might not emote. However, I definitely do not think an emotional outburst would mean that the ISTP has decided to engage Fe...
    Hmmm-do you think that trying to use a nonfavored function-like a tert or inferior to accomplish a goal could evoke emotion-frustration, irritation, exhaustion given the extra work it requires?

    When I try and use a Te approach to problems at work-logistics-i can do this but it is not simple. I will also short cut on the other functions perhaps-like Fi

    So maybe I get the email together summerizing the stocks of raw reagents and materials, but I dont bother investing it with a polite tone as it has taken too much energy to gather the info in a concise form in the first place?

    I dunno, just a random Ne-ism prompted by your thoughts.

  9. #69
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    The bolded is the frustration I read. Its a judgement that the situation is hopeless it results in an attacking defensive manner. It attacks the situation and blames the person by the use of objective detail. The pain though is riddled with frustration because he is not responding.

    If you notice my response I directly attacked and challenged the person.
    neat observation. Fi would find fault with itself first I think-then eventual surpass the "jesus" point and go onto the spew point of the bitchslap.

    It's all my fault...now it's all your fault. That's a perception shift...Hmmmm...

  10. #70
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Still getting the fire alarm image. ENFPs as environmental pressure systems, firstly to warn of pressure and secondly, to exert opposite pressure. So, what if you're wrong? Being an emotional landmine for the benefit of the human system itself means you have to be placed right and go off at the right time.

    That's if there's some actual system to this. And the individual isn't meant to actually move further than reaction moves them.


    Seriously, codifying bad judgment? Making it important? Like unto equal to actual solutions? Doing that lets people avoid talking about the actual hurt.


    Alternatively, everyone be aware that hurt INTJs will be aggressive and emotionally abusive, and you should all just accept that because, well, neener neener, we have tertiary functions and we don't have to think anymore when they're engaged.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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