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  1. #51
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    Why do I identify? Hmmmmm. . . . . do I have to rethink everything . . . AGAIN?!


    What does the ENFP shadow function look like?

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I think they're trying to get back at me/us for my 'IxTx..adorable' thread
    I would actually rather have IxTx think my rages are adorable than have ISFJs be scared of me. Because they are.

  3. #53
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I guess the best way to describe it is people don't think it's cute and pinch your cheeks when Fe is cutting down a swath of destruction in full scorched earth mode. They run for the hills with only the clothes on their backs.

    It happens when all attempts at diplomacy, tact, negotiation, and open communication have failed and you feel like your only recourse is an outright declaration of war that's fueled by all the attempts of diplomatic relations that have been rebuffed. It's more or less the feeling of I've been holding back on you and now the spring is sprung. Once it gets to that point, you can (unfortunately) feel justified in whatever action you take because you think you tried to make things right. It begins to feel more like wrath than anger.

    I'm not quite as good as doing the breakdown as you are because I haven't pinpointed any particular function. I can imagine tertiary Se backing this up in much the manner you've described in ESFPs, a very strong need for some physical alteration of the environment.
    Agreed. Fe isnt about being "nice". Its about playing the "loyalty/disloyalty" game. You can run around showing your disloyalty to people, tearing them down in total asshole/bitch mode and still be using Fe.
    ------------
    And the OP just sounds childish. OP is basically ranting about how 'people' are doing unconscionable things to the OP considering how 'open' the OP was about emotions. The unconscionable aspect reeks of Fi. However, that rant really doesnt display Te. Te is not about being angry. Te is about adhering to cause/effect, rules and legalistic decision making irrespective of what people think is unconscionable. Your rant is just 'angry Fi'.

  4. #54
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    So if it's a swing and a miss, that's like a bitchwave, I guess.

    So what happens if you're wrong? The big ole public display, how do you tell the difference between something objective and something subjective? Like, you fire of some superhumanly powerful bitch...wave, and you were wrong?

    One, the observer, is supposed just to let that be, right? The explosion is an essential part of being badass ENFP, isn't it? The pressure builds up on the poorly expressed control over the world, Te, some feeling going wrong or the appearance of things, and it has to be a burst of sound and fury because of the archetypal "weak J", a tertiary Te?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #55
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    And the OP just sounds childish. OP is basically ranting about how 'people' are doing unconscionable things to the OP considering how 'open' the OP was about emotions. The unconscionable aspect reeks of Fi. However, that rant really doesnt display Te. Te is not about being angry. Te is about adhering to cause/effect, rules and legalistic decision making irrespective of what people think is unconscionable. Your rant is just 'angry Fi'.
    I would agree that Fi is a childish thing. It is innocent on some level, annoyingly so at times. However it serves it's evolutionarily conserved purpose like all the other functions.

    Functions in different places are different. Functions in different types are different. As an Fe user, I am surprised you feel so confident making calls regarding what is and is not Te. I can make guesses or suggestions about Fe-but I would always request an Fe user to validate. Here we have a whole thread of ENFPs who are in reasonable agreement that the source of this rage is likely Te-albeit contaminated with Fi of course.

    It is a very reasonable theory and a repeatedly observed data point across the entire group. I am totally open to consider that this is all Fi-can you expound on why you feel it is Fi? can you highlight some examples of how Fi would display rage?

    Based on my own, granted subjective, usage of Fi, it mirrors pain, it mirrors others happiness and joy. Fi also seems to try and match complex patterns when used with Ne-weirdly so at times. But it doesnt mirror anger-it actually tries to withdraw-thus the series of steps in the initial mechanism proposed in the OP where we find something else to try and handle the situation. Under stress-why not the tert function?

    I would be interested in seeing your proposal for alternate steps for the same behavioral exhibit as if it really is Fi somehow that would be cool.

    I think especially relevant might be rundvards and the IXFP perspective where they lead with Fi, but dont display the magnitude of the rage response that EXFPs do. My thought is this would be the Te position but I am very open to hearing alternatives.

  6. #56
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    I would agree that Fi is a childish thing. It is innocent on some level, annoyingly so at times. However it serves it's evolutionarily conserved purpose like all the other functions.

    Functions in different places are different. Functions in different types are different. As an Fe user, I am surprised you feel so confident making calls regarding what is and is not Te. I can make guesses or suggestions about Fe-but I would always request an Fe user to validate. Here we have a whole thread of ENFPs who are in reasonable agreement that the source of this rage is likely Te-albeit contaminated with Fi of course.

    It is a very reasonable theory and a repeatedly observed data point across the entire group. I am totally open to consider that this is all Fi-can you expound on why you feel it is Fi? can you highlight some examples of how Fi would display rage?

    Based on my own, granted subjective, usage of Fi, it mirrors pain, it mirrors others happiness and joy. Fi also seems to try and match complex patterns when used with Ne-weirdly so at times. But it doesnt mirror anger-it actually tries to withdraw-thus the series of steps in the initial mechanism proposed in the OP where we find something else to try and handle the situation. Under stress-why not the tert function?

    I would be interested in seeing your proposal for alternate steps for the same behavioral exhibit as if it really is Fi somehow that would be cool.

    I think especially relevant might be rundvards and the IXFP perspective where they lead with Fi, but dont display the magnitude of the rage response that EXFPs do. My thought is this would be the Te position but I am very open to hearing alternatives.
    Im going to just respond to your wall post here, because I cant seem to be able to PM you : basically, I reached my break point with ENFPs awhile ago, and at first I thought it was just an 'individual' or 'unhealthy' thing. However, then I realized that even healthy ENFP traits, just remind me of said 'unhealthy ones'. I have even been friends with ENFPs (like really good friends) in the past. Now, its simply ruined for me. I cannot stand them. Sorry, , but thats the most honesty you're going to get out of me.

    As to your post quoted here, I honestly didnt mean to blame childish Fi because I hate ENFPs. I actually have a logical reason for this. I dont feel that functions can be categorized as skill sets (ie going for a Jog is not Se and having a calendar is not Si). I think your rant is one of those instances where its something that isnt meant to be categorized as a function. Thus I explain it as: your Fi was hurt, and you then react like many other humans do when they feel angry.

    Here's what I got for Fi and Te:
    Introverted Feeling (Fi) makes sense of the world by relating everything to universal human needs and callings. For example, understanding the actions of a bully as the expression of an unmet need to be connected and feel important. Understanding that, we can see the bully without judgement: we can see him as a living being not so different from ourselves, seeking to fulfill his needs just as we do, but in a way that creates unnecessary conflict. As an epistemological perspective, Fi leads you to take whatever a person thinks or believes as an expression of that person's unique nature--not to criticize it because it fails to live up to some externally imposed criteria like whether or not it's "logical" or "appropriate". As an ethical perspective, Fi leads you to act out of empathy regardless of the social status or "deservingness" of the beneficiary. Fi leads you to view all living things as equal in value, all needing to thrive in interpersonal harmony without giving up any of their uniqueness.

    Extraverted Thinking makes sense of the world by viewing things "objectively": in terms of categories and measurements that can be defined in advance of observation. For example, defining the specifications of a wheel that make it acceptable for use on the road. Stable categories and measurements enable people to define shared goals and enforce agreements fairly. You can tell whether the wheel met the specifications or not; anyone can tell, because the specifications are defined independently of both the wheel and the person doing the measuring. As an epistemological perspective, Te leads you to be concerned with logical and empirical justification. No conclusion may be accepted until it has been grounded on a firm foundation of other facts that have themselves been firmly established. What has not been tested is unknown; what cannot be tested is meaningless. As an ethical perspective, Te leads to a life of "rational hill-climbing": making every decision according to well-defined criteria for what counts as better and worse. You might not know how to get to your goal, but at each decision, you take the choice that leads closer to it: you improve your position at every opportunity. Moral codes in a Te worldview emphasize keeping one's promises. Justice is understood as a social agreement negotiated by all parties, which specifies rewards and punishments that must be enforced fairly according to objective rules.
    Perhaps part of your rant lines up with stuff from these...I couldnt really get through all the chaos though (must...have... organization! )

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    So if it's a swing and a miss, that's like a bitchwave, I guess.

    So what happens if you're wrong? The big ole public display, how do you tell the difference between something objective and something subjective? Like, you fire of some superhumanly powerful bitch...wave, and you were wrong?

    One, the observer, is supposed just to let that be, right? The explosion is an essential part of being badass ENFP, isn't it? The pressure builds up on the poorly expressed control over the world, Te, some feeling going wrong or the appearance of things, and it has to be a burst of sound and fury because of the archetypal "weak J", a tertiary Te?
    wrong or right implies judgment. you would need to judge two things:

    1. Is the behavioral display acceptable in the context of the situation? ie a restaurant at dinner

    2. Is the behavioral display valid in its conclusions. This would depend on how the output was being judged-what metrics are you applying? I'd say almost always to evoke this response you applying significant amounts of pain to the person, thus Fi may judge the response acceptable regardless of the actual content of the display. Te may judge the content inefficient, Fe will judge as selfish and overly distracting to the group, and Ti will identify logical flaws.

    While both are very valid questions, each will depend highly upon the particular event, thus are of little value in establishing trends, patterns and building predictive models to characterize the global behavior-to prevent the event from happening again in the future, as it it is well recognized as not being the most healthy way to handle problems as can be seen by most ENFPs so far.

    The point of the discussion is to understand where the behavioral display originates, identify patterns, identify strategies to prevent and to allow acceptance and understanding of what the innate behavioral tendencies of an ENFP will be, then move forward with solutions.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    Your rant is just 'angry Fi'.
    And what was your childish rant yesterday - angry Fe?

    "Waaaaaaaaaaaah I was hit in the face by a little child and the idiot mother did nothing!!!!!"


    After your emo rant, you have no room to be pointing a finger at Puppy.
    You have no room to point it at anyone.
    The future is for the unafraid.

  9. #59
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    Im going to just respond to your wall post here, because I cant seem to be able to PM you : basically, I reached my break point with ENFPs awhile ago, and at first I thought it was just an 'individual' or 'unhealthy' thing. However, then I realized that even healthy ENFP traits, just remind me of said 'unhealthy ones'. I have even been friends with ENFPs (like really good friends) in the past. Now, its simply ruined for me. I cannot stand them. Sorry, , but thats the most honesty you're going to get out of me.

    As to your post quoted here, I honestly didnt mean to blame childish Fi because I hate ENFPs. I actually have a logical reason for this. I dont feel that functions can be categorized as skill sets (ie going for a Jog is not Se and having a calendar is not Si). I think your rant is one of those instances where its something that isnt meant to be categorized as a function. Thus I explain it as: your Fi was hurt, and you then react like many other humans do when they feel angry.
    Oh, dude, no problem-ENFJs drive me insane in real life too, but Proteo has taught me enormously by being very honest in her observations. I can then take the data she supplies and implement productively to modify how I interact with Fe users.

    Same thing sometimes with ENTPs. By taking their sometimes painful observations/frustrations, breaking them down, and trying to understand them it gives me a new perspective on what I already understand. I appreciate this, even though it can hurt at times.

    Yup, all around agree the OP is not the healthy way to resolve issue-yet is a pretty normal ENFP behavior. The best progress I make in my own self improvement is to define step by step models-like in the OP-then plan very explicit strategies so that the next time I feel the innate response, I can stop, rationalize, then logically decide what I want to do, not what biology programs me to do.

    The functions are a generic toolkit-it's much harder to wrap a pattern around things like "anger". What is anger? If I can cloak this in a function I try to-although some things are fairly complex, thus i fail terribly. It can be hit or miss.

    This one feels right via Ne connectivites but I am always open to new interpretations.

    How do you think emotions fit into the context of functions?

    Are the functions without emotion? I dunno... not at all sure.

  10. #60
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    wrong or right implies judgment. you would need to judge two things:
    Only two? And only those two? So ENFPs are like alarm bells signalling the presence of injustice with mighty roars and table poundings? Fair enough.

    And what if you're wrong?

    That question isn't supposed to be asked, is it. The ENFP siren--fire alarm rather than Parisienne--is a genuine call to action, isn't it. And they're actually not to be questioned because it is their skill to be aware of injustice and inhumanity.

    The bitchslap turns the tide of man's inhumanity to ENFPs man.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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