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  1. #281
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    To be equally prosaic, good luck applying cognitive norms to people who don't share them. "Deal" particularly has different meanings across the types. But what the real implication of that is, I don't know. Increased complexity of interactions or foreordained failure? Beats me.

    I'm moderately willing to claim all anyone is fundamentally required to do is become aware of where their judgments can no longer apply and how much and what kind of information is needed before any judgment is legitimate.
    You're confusing cognitive norms with social norms. Your brain's a given, but you need other people to live.

  2. #282
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Am not. I'm saying that however twee it is to start using function terms like Fi and Fe, they represent genuine contributors to personal identity. For example, if I start shooting my mouth off about other people, I'm really not aiming to directly engage feelings. I really am aiming to codify impersonal, objective realities (behind and beyond which lie personal, subjective feeling). Objective feeling isn't my target. Nor is subjective truth. I can begin to interact with subjective truth, but I really have no notion of objective feeling beyond occasionally witnessing its existence, and bending my aims and goals and interests to it is a largely foundationless exercise (unless perhaps I had some utilitarian purpose and was willing to fake it for a while). "Deal" in my case means admit subjective bias and direct objective structures accordingly bearing in mind that I will prefer to direct objective structure first and admit subjective bias second. Something like that is the actual content of saying Te+Fi. Literally all that will happen should the heavier of the slim wristed hands of extroverted feeling priorities be applied is a clash of wills. Those extroverted feeling priorities will be objective, and yet they will be no more compelling to those who don't directly care for them than will the objective priorities of extroverted thinking. It makes no difference whether the prioritizor feels those priorities strongly or not. Cognitive norms trump social norms every time whether the subject ends up compelled by society and enjoying it or not. This position as a whole rest on the apparently quite weak claim that type theory is true, or you can consider it to be personal testimony mediated via function terminology.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #283
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Am not. I'm saying that however twee it is to start using function terms like Fi and Fe, they represent genuine contributors to personal identity. For example, if I start shooting my mouth off about other people, I'm really not aiming to directly engage feelings.
    But you still do. There nothing you can do to control that reality.

    I really am aiming to codify impersonal, objective realities (behind and beyond which lie personal, subjective feeling). Objective feeling isn't my target. Nor is subjective truth. I can begin to interact with subjective truth, but I really have no notion of objective feeling beyond occasionally witnessing its existence, and bending my aims and goals and interests to it is a largely foundationless exercise (unless perhaps I had some utilitarian purpose and was willing to fake it for a while).
    I'm calling BS. You know that things like hugging people and giving them gifts makes others feel good. That's all "objective feeling" is - recognizing that those you subjectively perceive as "objects" also have their own subjective reality, that this reality is just as valid as your own, and should be respected as such. Just because you're more comfortable with your subjective feelings doesn't mean that you don't understand what the opposite is.

    "Deal" in my case means admit subjective bias and direct objective structures accordingly bearing in mind that I will prefer to direct objective structure first and admit subjective bias second.
    In other words, shirk responsibility. Gotcha.

    Something like that is the actual content of saying Te+Fi. Literally all that will happen should the heavier of the slim wristed hands of extroverted feeling priorities be applied is a clash of wills.
    The Roman Empire tried to stamp out Christianity. Nowadays, the Roman Empire only lives on through the forms of Christianity.

    Those extroverted feeling priorities will be objective, and yet they will be no more compelling to those who don't directly care for them than will the objective priorities of extroverted thinking.
    Maybe not compelling, but no less real. I find excessive structure to be dull and mundane, but it's still an aspect of our culture that I must take into account.

    It makes no difference whether the prioritizor feels those priorities strongly or not.
    Yup.

    Cognitive norms trump social norms every time whether the subject ends up compelled by society and enjoying it or not.
    I disagree.

    This position as a whole rest on the apparently quite weak claim that type theory is true, or you can consider it to be personal testimony mediated via function terminology.
    If that's what you intend it to be, then I'll accept that for what it is.

  4. #284
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Clash of wills it is then.


    Hugging people and giving them gifts makes them feel good? I shall deploy The Claw!
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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