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  1. #261
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Freedom, potentially. The need to NOT have to deal with subtext in all future postings on any topic.

    Indeed. The trouble is I am very unsure what is real. What, for example, is the truth of any interactions that have played out in other threads since this one? Do I need a defensive posture when posting? Will I be arguing the overt case of whichever topic, or dealing with some unresolved hidden forces?

    And what to do? Say sorry? For what? Being the unassuming magnetic ball of attraction I so obviously am? People can't control themselves around me.

    Taking responsibility for the feelings of others has a limit, and I would assume it is marked at the point where they no longer take responsibility for their own.
    I wasn't suggesting that you take responsibility for anyone's feelings, only your own part in it. If you are truly an innocent bystander, then I can understand your confusion - but I don't think you really believe that, do you?

    Either way, there is an ignore function on this site if you feel so threatened and scared of your future posts and their implications to her. But posts like the one above were done directly to antagonize her or communicate with her, and you know it.

    I don't care what you do. I really don't. I was just trying to be helpful because you seem nice enough and I care for her deeply, and she seems to be hurting. But if you don't think that you had anything to do with any of this, and all of this was the imagination and ranting of a crazy woman, then I feel for you and I urge you again to stop riling her up.

    I guess I'm done here. Good luck with everything.

  2. #262
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    If you are truly an innocent bystander, then I can understand your confusion - but I don't think you really believe that, do you?
    Actually, honestly, I kind of do. I really don't get how the interactions snowballed into this. I did make several strategic errors, like basically ignoring overblown emotional appeals. They didn't fit the interaction as I saw it so I more or less assumed they weren't real. Next strategic mistake was to attempt to continue what I supposed were intellectual interactions. I didn't get how I was supposed to deal with the subjective, and didn't want to.

    Either way, there is an ignore function on this site if you feel so threatened and scared of your future posts and their implications to her.
    Technically it doesn't work. Only if one is logged in does one get stuff screened out. Good for rep, inadequate for casual browsing, really poor for a concept of wholeness of understanding and correctness in judgment.

    On the other hand, yeah. A corollary to my own polemic is I can and should deal with my own issues and not have to make the forum into their playground.


    ...to some degree.

    After all, can one actually take responsibility by keeping quiet? If we want to be wholistic about it, the real ENFP bitchslap is the explosion that comes of keeping quiet too long.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #263
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Actually, honestly, I kind of do. I really don't get how the interactions snowballed into this. I did make several strategic errors, like basically ignoring overblown emotional appeals. They didn't fit the interaction as I saw it so I more or less assumed they weren't real. Next strategic mistake was to attempt to continue what I supposed were intellectual interactions. I didn't get how I was supposed to deal with the subjective, and didn't want to.



    Technically it doesn't work. Only if one is logged in does one get stuff screened out. Good for rep, inadequate for casual browsing, really poor for a concept of wholeness of understanding and correctness in judgment.

    On the other hand, yeah. A corollary to my own polemic is I can and should deal with my own issues and not have to make the forum into their playground.


    ...to some degree.

    After all, can one actually take responsibility by keeping quiet? If we want to be wholistic about it, the real ENFP bitchslap is the explosion that comes of keeping quiet too long.
    Actually, I understand this.

    It's how I lost my ESFJ wife. I ignored the problems/issues/messages that I didn't know how to deal with. It snowballed into divorce.

    Is it "your fault?"

    On the one hand, not really. Ignorance and lack of skill are legitimate excuses, in my thinking.

    On the other hand, it is best to treat it as much your fault as you can: ignorance and lack of skill can be fixed, post facto. It may not fix the issue at hand, but it will help prevent it from coming up again.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #264
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Actually, I understand this.

    It's how I lost my ESFJ wife. I ignored the problems/issues/messages that I didn't know how to deal with. It snowballed into divorce.

    Is it "your fault?"

    On the one hand, not really. Ignorance and lack of skill are legitimate excuses, in my thinking.

    On the other hand, it is best to treat it as much your fault as you can: ignorance and lack of skill can be fixed, post facto. It may not fix the issue at hand, but it will help prevent it from coming up again.
    Intent doesn't matter. If you fuck up, you've got to own up to it. Even (especially) if you didn't mean it. Otherwise, how is the other person supposed to know?

  5. #265
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Intent doesn't matter. If you fuck up, you've got to own up to it. Even (especially) if you didn't mean it. Otherwise, how is the other person supposed to know?
    Intent does matter. You are correct, however, in that it's a matter of degree.

    It is best to do no wrong, but it is better to unintentionally do wrong than to intentionally do wrong.

    I would perhaps also agree that it is more important to own up to it if it is unintentional. You'll keep messing up if you don't. If it's intentional, you already know it's evil, you just don't care, or don't think it's evil: there's no way to fix that without a change of heart.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #266
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Intent does matter. You are correct, however, in that it's a matter of degree.

    It is best to do no wrong, but it is better to unintentionally do wrong than to intentionally do wrong.
    Not as far as it goes toward the ones wronged. They're emotionally harmed the same either way. Claiming a lack of intent often is a way to deflect responsibility - a way to apologize without apologizing.

    Cowardly, in a word.

    I would perhaps also agree that it is more important to own up to it if it is unintentional. You'll keep messing up if you don't. If it's intentional, you already know it's evil, you just don't care, or don't think it's evil: there's no way to fix that without a change of heart.
    True enough, but then there are several degrees of mens rea.

  7. #267
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Not as far as it goes toward the ones wronged. They're emotionally harmed the same either way. Claiming a lack of intent often is a way to deflect responsibility - a way to apologize without apologizing.

    Cowardly, in a word.
    Perhaps, but the cowardliness can be in the other direction, too: claiming wrongdoing when the problem is one's own perception.

    Some people wear their hearts on their shoulder.

    [I'm alluding to the old convention of putting a stick on one's shoulder, daring someone to knock it off, in order to justify a fight. Some people use their "hurt feelings" in the same manner.]

    Note that your exception kind of proves the rule: that the lack of intent actually is regarded as an extenuating circumstance. Yes, it can be abused (or lied about), but that implies that it is otherwise legitimate.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #268
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Perhaps, but the cowardliness can be in the other direction, too: claiming wrongdoing when the problem is one's own perception.

    Some people wear their hearts on their shoulder.

    [I'm alluding to the old convention of putting a stick on one's shoulder, daring someone to knock it off, in order to justify a fight. Some people use their "hurt feelings" in the same manner.]

    Note that your exception kind of proves the rule: that the lack of intent actually is regarded as an extenuating circumstance. Yes, it can be abused (or lied about), but that implies that it is otherwise legitimate.
    Assume good faith, then punish malfeasance once proven. Assuming bad faith on the part of others is paranoia.

    There aren't enough sociopaths in the world to justify distrusting everyone you come across. People don't say things without reason generally - it's just that everyone's got their own perspective on the thing, and means of judgment.

  9. #269
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Assume good faith, then punish malfeasance once proven. Assuming bad faith on the part of others is paranoia.

    There aren't enough sociopaths in the world to justify distrusting everyone you come across. People don't say things without reason generally - it's just that everyone's got their own perspective on the thing, and means of judgment.
    Therefore, assume good faith on the part of both parties.

    That's what I usually do.

    Most of the time, people are messing up due to stupidity, not malfeasance. Nearly as often, both parties of a transaction are just acting on bad assumptions. The trick is to learn from it, rather than to blame one another.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #270
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Therefore, assume good faith on the part of both parties.

    That's what I usually do.

    Most of the time, people are messing up due to stupidity, not malfeasance. Nearly as often, both parties of a transaction are just acting on bad assumptions. The trick is to learn from it, rather than to blame one another.
    Right - contrition isn't a sign of weakness. It's quite the opposite, actually.

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