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  1. #221
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    @Happy Puppy:

    You're just a vorpal bunny, is all.

    And INTJs have Holy Hand Grenades.

    And know how to count to three.
    Ah-I had no idea there was such a thing. or two things.

    or even numbers. meh, go figure.

    (I am trying to have engage in an emo, introspective, yet communaly externalized session of analysis and atonement for being a total douchebag to try and morph into a better person. What is it with INTJs not letting me stay emo...)

    (Albeit my INTJ father figure asked about my friend, and i explained I had flamed/mauled him in front of an internet forum of 1100+ people in an irrational crazed fit of lunacy. He looked at me, raised his eyebrow, laughed and said "good job, honey.." and nodded approvingly. What is it with INTJs thinking this shit is funny?)

    Moving right along for more emo....

  2. #222
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Intent and Authenticity

    Te's thoughts:

    ENFP rules:
    1. Authenticity in our emotive response. It feels real weird/bad to not be honest with emo or use it manipulatively. Part of our innate programming seems to hardwire this authenticity in. So it is very shocking and painful to have our emotional response challenged as dishonest or as PLANNED manipulation. Dont get me wrong-we are hard wired to be able to pull emo strings, but 95% of it seems to be innate and unplanned.

    2. Intent-On the Ti/Fi threads the assertion is often made:
    Ti: You are manipulating and hurting people (a well honed Ti/Fe skill set)
    Fi: But I didnt mean too and I didnt plan to (no intent, manipulation may occur but under the conscious level)
    Ti: But you still are to be judged for what you do and found at fault and must conform (Fe social rules say you should )
    Fi: But if I didnt do it on purpose (Thus I need to admit wrong, be forgiven and given direction on how to not repeat the offense-Te social rules)

    Or something like that. Then 100 pages of fighting starts. But innately we are very prone to cycles of forgive, instruct, learn, move forward both to others and to ourselves. I think this may be a Te societal theme.

    Now it seems our ENFPs on this thread kinda split into two groups:

    1. Yeah I drop emo bombs of the sobbing or rage variety. But then I feel really bad about it afterwords, apologize, and realize I over reacted. I am learning to control via the "jesus" moment and other stuff. I feel very guilty later.

    2. The more mature ENFPs-yeah I used to do this, but nowdays if I do something of this sort it is a planned pointed defensive measure meant to specifically exert a boundary. There seems to be control over how the measure is deployed.

    I'd suggest you are seeing Fi maturity in this trend. When young we are born with an innate emo display/bitchslap response. It is preprogrammed and innate. As we grow and learn we likely spend about 20 years being total emo bombs. But we arent real dangerous-more emo fountains of sadness and some emo rage. I'd suggest after each round, we analyze the situation, use Fi/Te to assess was the response I generated a reasonable one to the provocation, then either move on judgment satisfied, or feel guilt that we over reacted.

    We are calibrating Fi.

    Likely the emo/rage/bitchslap really does have a useful societal purpose. But to calibrate we have to seek external feedback and affirmation-"Was that response over the top?" "yes/no and this is what you may want to do next time instead" Um, yeah, cant learn that from the ENTPs.

    It is reactionary-it is innately that way for some reason, but I'd suggest we hone Fi as we age, and learn to deploy more selectively?

  3. #223
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    So what happens if you skip Fi? What if you never use it? You just never bother calibrating it? I'd suggest BPD is a poorly calibrated Fi with a lot of Ne pulling you around and very little Si to ground on.

    That's not me. I skipped that and went straight to Te pretty firmly grounded in Si. I am very realistic and pragmatic in most of my daily decisions. Once all the safe boxes are checked, then I play with Ne. But the bills are paid, I am debt free, I have a good job, own my own home, and am reasonable stable in the day to day. Much less crazy than I appear at Type C actually. Really-I am more NeTeSiFi. (Like a fucked up emo ENTJ oddly. good point...)

    Fi serves as a river, a deep foundation, it really is the base point of most of my actions but is exceptionally simplistic and childlike in how it functions. Very black and white, very little resolution, very little calibration. It is hyper empathic, very sensitive and only gets used on groups and then very shallowly.

    So what happens when HP's Fi decides to embark upon an emo/rage/bitchslap breakdown? Being poorly calibrated and very seldom deployed it overreacts just a bit. Thus the deployment of a 40 megaton nuclear warhead rather than just not checking my email.

    Something to emphasize-this is innate, reactive, seemingly instinctual to a certain extent. There is no known plan-just pain/rage filled chaos. I hit a very disturbing moment here thinking over this.

    In a young enfp this rage would involve some dishes being thrown. An older ENFP with more Fi might choose to selectively deploy or walk away. However given the noncalibrated Fi and the amount of Te I tote around, in that rage I become a force of destruction and inflict massive damage-over something fairly inconsequential. Like letting the hurt, pissed off 5 year old Fi user push the big red Te button to end the world.

    Much much more disturbing to me-I had no plan, no Fe objective to destroy or humiliate another person. I responded very reactively, angrily, emotionally, quite insanelyand or hyperanalytically to cope with emo overflow. Yet I could see all the pieces clicking into place as the thread progressed. Like dancing but not knowing the steps in advance. Click, click, click, click.... Everything I did was real, authentic, emotional and free of an intent to harm or a plan-and the culmination was horrific in how effectively it set the other person up to look cruel and then humiliate them.

    This, this, this terrifies me. I always refrain from competing or deeply connecting as I know I have a monster inside-I could hurt others very much. To let that out and see this happen so effectively-and easily? Fucking nightmarishly horrific. No Intent, all authentic-yet final result can destroy people. There is some sort of powerplay/social dynamics at work, yes, but 95% of it seems to be running under the conscious radar-which is very scary. It isnt like the Fe social games-it seems instinctual.

    This shook me up for days and the reflected emo pain will be carried for years as my primary Fi mandate is that you dont hurt people.

    My friend is actually a pretty cool guy-albeit with flaws just like the rest of us-and I made him look like a jerk. What a fucking douchebag that makes me

    Puppy needs to spend some alone time with her Fi methinks.

  4. #224
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Why/how/what makes hurting others so easy in this mode?
    i would guess you(or enfps who do this) let it build inside for so long that you just cant keep it in and go all berserk.

    i think the healthy way would be expressing the frustration before it builds inside so much that you start raging like hulk. or when you see that someone is going to cross the line soon, just tell it to him, he will step back and you dont have to rage

  5. #225
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    i would guess you(or enfps who do this) let it build inside for so long that you just cant keep it in and go all berserk.

    i think the healthy way would be expressing the frustration before it builds inside so much that you start raging like hulk. or when you see that someone is going to cross the line soon, just tell it to him, he will step back and you dont have to rage
    That might be the case in some instances, but I suspect that it is far more likely a different kind of frustration. One of the reasons people draw close to each other is that they feel a wonderful mutual understanding of each other. It remains possible, however, that misunderstandings occur.

    One sends one's message, and it appears to be received, yet the other behaves as if no message has been received. One resends the message, even more clearly and specifically, but to no avail. One sends the message with more emotional force and more drastic measures, but still the message does not appear to have been received.

    Then one blows up with frustration.

    It is all the more frustrating because one believes that one has this close connection, this wonderful mutual communication that flows so smoothly, that one becomes terribly perplexed and upset that a very important message is not being acknowledged.

  6. #226
    Senior Member pyramid's Avatar
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    poorly executed Te bitchslap is only owned by my lexicon. I know exactly what I want to say but a word failed to appear and I chose the wrong alternative and my otherwise justified point has now been misinterpreted. I prefer to prevent getting to this situation but people like family can rocket me there. Laughably, sometimes I wish someone would provoke me to this point in a good way because I am always in awe of my own accurate Te rant. It's a pure channeling of emotion, the emotion that usually goes through many layers of filters before coming out.

  7. #227
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Hello, old thread, I've missed you.

    Te, my ass. The monumentally subjective element that goes into this bitchslap means the bulk of it is driven by introverted feeling judgment. Acting out does not make it Te. Extraverted thinking is concerned with the truth of objects and as such is really next to useless as a moral tool. Where is this super "Te" getting it's moral conviction from in the bitchslap scenario? Yes, you guessed it, from some other judgment function. Is there actually any extraverted thinking involved in these scenarios at all? Well, the principal "truths" are being delivered by feeling. So, is thinking left prescribing procedures? Probably. And based on what "object"? Why, feeling, of course. So are those procedures competent?

    Time to quote Jung:

    It is a feeling which apparently depreciates the object; hence it usually becomes noticeable in its negative manifestations. The existence of a positive feeling can be inferred only indirectly, as it were. Its aim is not so much to accommodate to the objective fact as to stand above it, since its whole unconscious effort is to give reality to the underlying images. It is, as it were, continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but of which it has had a sort of previous vision. From objects that can never fit in with its aim it seems to glide unheedingly away. It strives after an inner intensity, to which at the most, objects contribute only an accessory stimulus. The depths of this feeling can only be divined -- they can never be clearly comprehended.

    [...]

    But, when it becomes falsified by an egocentric attitude, it at once grows unsympathetic, since then its major concern is still with the ego. Such a case never fails to create an impression of sentimental self-love, with its constant effort to arouse interest and even morbid self-admiration just as the subjectified consciousness of the introverted thinker, striving after an abstraction of abstractions, only attains a supreme intensity of a thought-process in itself quite empty, so the intensification of egocentric feeling only leads to a contentless passionateness, which merely feels itself.




    No, thank you!
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #228
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Hello, old thread, I've missed you.
    Te, my ass.
    Translated: "I think I'll revive this thread, just to fuck with ENFPs."

  9. #229
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Yeah..that's what i was thinking
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  10. #230
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    And you'd be right.


    Furthermore:

    The thought of the extraverted thinking type is, positive, i.e. it produces. It either leads to new facts or to general conceptions of disparate experimental material. Its judgment is generally synthetic. Even when it analyses, it constructs, because it is always advancing beyond the, analysis to a new combination, a further conception which reunites the analysed material in a new way or adds some., thing further to the given material. In general, therefore, we may describe this kind of judgment as predicative. In any case, characteristic that it is never absolutely depreciatory or destructive, but always substitutes a fresh value for one that is demolished. This quality is due to the fact that thought is the main channel into which a thinking-type's energy flows. Life steadily advancing shows itself in the man's thinking, so that his ideas maintain a progressive, creative character. His thinking neither stagnates, nor is it in the least regressive. Such qualities cling only to a thinking that is not given priority in consciousness. In this event it is relatively unimportant, and also lacks the character of a positive vital activity. It follows in the wake of other functions, it becomes Epimethean, it has an 'esprit de l'escalier' quality, contenting itself with constant ponderings and broodings upon things past and gone, in an effort to analyse and digest them. Where the creative element, as in this case, inhabits another function, thinking no longer progresses it stagnates. Its judgment takes on a decided inherency-character, i.e. it entirely confines itself to the range of the given material, nowhere overstepping it. It is contented with a more or less abstract statement, and fails to impart any value to the experimental material that was not already there.

    The inherency-judgment of such extraverted thinking is objectively orientated, i.e. its conclusion always expresses the objective importance of experience. Hence, not only does it remain under the orientating influence of objective data, but it actually rests within the charmed circle of the individual experience, about which it affirms nothing that was not already given by it. We may easily observe this thinking in those people who cannot refrain from tacking on to an impression or experience some rational and doubtless very valid remark, which, however, in no way adventures beyond the given orbit of the experience. At bottom, such a remark merely says 'I have understood it -- I can reconstruct it.' But there the matter also ends. At its very highest, such a judgment signifies merely the placing of an experience in an objective setting, whereby the experience is at once recognized as belonging to the frame.

    But whenever a function other than thinking possesses priority in consciousness to any marked degree, in so far as thinking is conscious at all and not directly dependent upon the dominant function, it assumes a negative character. In so far as it is subordinated to the dominant function, it may actually wear a positive aspect, but a narrower scrutiny will easily prove that it simply mimics the dominant function, supporting it with arguments that unmistakably contradict the laws of logic proper to thinking. Such a thinking, therefore, ceases to have any interest for our present discussion.Our concern is rather with the constitution of that thinking which cannot be subordinated to the dominance of another function, but remains true to its own principle.



    Which is to say, dominant functions dominate, lesser functions serve.


    So, the meaning of this thread is, sometimes we get angry? That's awesome.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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