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  1. #191
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    (...snip...)
    When I get angry I get strategic and look for greatest pay-off/redemption. The angrier I get, the cooler and calmer I feel. I've heard one other ENFP female tell me similar - she gets filled with cool dispassion.

    (...snip...)
    And on a sidenote, how I get crazy intense and focused when I'm truly pissed gives me a good track record facing off with mean old corporations. IOW, I'm pretty good at getting my money back, vouchers, coupons, apologies, etc. when some bureacracy has wronged me.

    So in summation, when people poke at me I either get business like and outspoken and Te driven in my speech, I get super laser pinpoint intense and accurate like an INTJ, or I go nuts and just Fe (? LOLOLOL) all over the place.
    Thanks Cze Cze - QFT.

    Super sensitive ENFP here. When my Fi gets hurt it's intense and wordless and burning hot and multilayered. AND I have to sort it out by myself, alone, with someone very very close to me or in a diary. It's an INTROVERTED feeling. It doesn't spontaneously vomit its pain all over the place for +1000 unknown strangers to comment upon. It doesn't seek validation from strangers, it doesn't do social engeneering, it doesn't make bulletpoint theories. Te might do that after some sorting through the event, when I need to implement my Fi-judgment in the real world.

    When I've gone Te after a hurtful, personal event I can be so decisive and cold, I almost scare myself. It's not a state I wish to be in often, but it has been very good the few times I've had to do it.

    In the situation I might protectively need to gain time to isolate myself and mull the overwhelming Fi-signals over. Default extraverted Intuition may be improvising fluffy diversions to hide the emotional turmoil within me that I don't want anybody to see while it's going on. Especially not if that anybody has just hurt me. I certainly don't want to exhibit my vulnerability to someone who might hurt me.

    Point is: IF I display a lot of emotions publicly and instantly, they are not *really* vulnerable. They are more of a mockery of Fe, (eeh, I'm SO angry... poor me...), an act of clumsy social manipulation to rally support. Point is: anything, Ne-diversion, Fe-pretention, Te-logic etc. as long as it's not true Fi vulnerability being shown in what will appear to be an untrustworthy environment. No thanks, sir!

    Te - in a powerful albeit rather unsophisticated black and white shape - will be used in a more important way after my intense Fi meltdown and private evaluation of the situation and my response.

    When Fi is clear on the exact harm done and on how to avoid it in the future, it's time to execute through Te. It goes like this:

    I go very calm, very focused and very, very cold. I'm only decisive. There's no social drama or emo-display or fishing for sympathy and backinggroups. I'm in stern, silent 'lonely cowboy' mode. There's no room for discussion or negotiation, there's no access for anybody to my feelings. There's only the necessary amount of interaction and involvement with my opponent(-s), not many words, only what is needed for my decided solution to be communicated and effectuated.

    My Te-mode is icy. You won't see any other feelings than impatience to implement the draconic solutions matching the draconic pain. Plus a slight contempt for anyone delaying it. I've done this to a roommate:

    Me: "Listen, this is the deal: Either you move out of the house or I do. Get it?"
    Opponent: "Hey, what - there's no reason to..."
    Me: "Yes, there is. It's not up for discussion. See, I don't want to live with you, so which one is it? I think you should move, but if you don't, I will. So?
    Opponent: "Jeez, WTF, okay, I'll move out..."

    So: No waste of time, no emotional long drawn discussions, no drama. Te.

    In this (short-term) mode, I don't care for people's feelings, good or bad, towards me. Because there's no going back, there's no ambivalence, no apologies, there's no 'blowing off stream' only to take it back afterwards.
    It's onemindedly decisive and sternly meant. I've set course and I would be forever ashamed of myself if I changed it once expressed.

    When I'm still involved with people and trust them enough to show them a hurt, bleeding, hot and angry Fi, I might eventually calm down and say sorry, that was over the top. My Te-mode? Would never ever do that.

    Yeah, it's tertiary, kind of unsophisticated black and white I guess, but very forceful in it's icy efficiency when it get the green lights from Ne-Fi.

  2. #192
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    but the only point is communication...it's not about expected response...it's a just so you know sort of deal.
    So is a bitchslap for you a release of repressed anger and aggression? Bitchslapping for me was always about a display of dominance or something; a defensive power play; an instantaneous way of setting a clear boundary; a type of cruel and unusual punishment. Hmmm....yea, bitchslapping was definitely a defense move for me. The first two times I did it were when two separate girls, "friends" of mine, attempted to fist fight me in the 9th grade. The only thing I was trying to communicate was that I dared them to touch me.

    The only bitchslap I've ever received came from an ENTP male friend.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  3. #193
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Happy sees it as a perception shift which I see as a judgement shift. From Fi to Te.

    I understand why she sees it as a perception shift. She is going from one set of details, what she did, to another set of details, what the INTJ did. Its a shift in her perception. But she is also changing her judgement from her to him. This shift in perception just moved it from Fi her initial internal judgement to her Te external judgement. Is this perception shift handled with her inferior Si or her dominant Ne?

    Hey Poki-
    There is something to what you are saying here but it is tainted by Ne and Si as well. Not sure how-need to think on it more.

  4. #194
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    My Te-mode is icy. You won't see any other feelings than impatience to implement the draconic solutions matching the draconic pain. Plus a slight contempt for anyone delaying it. I've done this to a roommate:

    Me: "Listen, this is the deal: Either you move out of the house or I do. Get it?"
    Opponent: "Hey, what - there's no reason to..."
    Me: "Yes, there is. It's not up for discussion. See, I don't want to live with you, so which one is it? I think you should move, but if you don't, I will. So?
    Opponent: "Jeez, WTF, okay, I'll move out..."

    So: No waste of time, no emotional long drawn discussions, no drama. Te.

    In this (short-term) mode, I don't care for people's feelings, good or bad, towards me. Because there's no going back, there's no ambivalence, no apologies, there's no 'blowing off stream' only to take it back afterwards.
    It's onemindedly decisive and sternly meant. I've set course and I would be forever ashamed of myself if I changed it once expressed.
    Yes.

    THIS is Te-mode. Definitely.

    In normal Te-mode, something hurtful might be said, but it's mostly by accident: one is just trying to accomplish some task, and the approach is entirely dispassionate. The Te-user's attitude toward hurt feelings will be to calmly explain that the task needed to be accomplished, and while we regret that feelings got hurt, and apologize if there were some way to accomplish the task without hurting feelings. The main thing is that there is no malice. And it isn't even selfishness. It's just a worldview in which one doesn't automatically include feelings when devising plans to accomplish tasks.

    In the hurt-feeling Te-mode, ironically, feelings matter even less, not more. No, not even one's own feelings: we're currently ignoring how hurt we are so we can get this over with. Our feelings prompted this mode, but that's all. They are not in the driver's seat. (Otherwise, it'd be an Fi or Fi/Te mode. Duh.)

    So the hurt feelings (and we're talking seriously continually hurt feelings, not just a minor ego bruising or temporary resentment, but life-altering deep hurt, continually-violated boundaries) put us into a problem-solving mode to figure out how to fix the situation. In the example above, the fix is "leave." Te figures out all the practical "leave" options (you move out, I move out), and presents them to the other party. For those interested, this is simply establishing boundaries, albeit an extreme example. Usually, boundaries would be established by statements like, "Please don't borrow my toothbrush. Get your own," without any real rancor, just mild annoyance.

    What's interesting about this mode is that, for ENFPs, this is when they become most like INTJs. One realizes that one's usual approach is not working, so the go to the next judging function down in order to process things. The Fi doesn't come into play precisely because it isn't going to get anything done, and keeping one's own feelings exposed to the situation hurts too much. So feelings are removed from the decision-making process, and one figures out how to rearrange the physical, objective, outside-world (as opposed to personal inner world) situation in order to correct the problem.

    Happy Puppy's original post, as I've already pointed out, has a lot more Fi in it, that it isn't pure Te. I still think it's the same thing going on, establishment of boundaries, with an explanation of why the boundaries are being established. However, in this case, part of the explanation is that boundaries had already been set, but ignored. The reason for the more violently verbal direction is that the calm, cold reasoning approach didn't work, either! So, it's still Te, but it's Te pushing harder and louder, letting the Fi emo leak out to graphically illustrate that one really means what one says.

    Happy Puppy's version is probably one of a few possible escalations of Heart&Brain's situation, mostly depending on whether the H&B version can find a workable Te escalation. In real-life land, moving out is an eminently practical solution. In internet-land, there is no practical way to "move" oneself such that one no longer receives email, etc: it becomes more practical to give the other person strong reasons to stop.

  5. #195
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Ok, that's my IceQueen mode as I call it. The only way to get there is past the Mountain of Doom spitting fire at you (Fi) and ignoring that!

    I hate doing this. It feels so definitive, it's burning bridges permanently, at least on this specific topic. There is no room for negotiation anymore, there's just forcing things to happen. And it typically leaves me feeling emotionally numb, almost dead, except for disappointment in the situation, myself and the other person. It's when all hope is lost. All communication has seized.

    I will yell at you, overload you with pain before I do this, at least if it was worth fighting for. If it wasn't someone important to me, and not an important issue, I might skip to this because it is more efficient. But I avoid to go here at *all* costs on important thigns and with people I care deeply for.

    Alternatively, I might adopt it to get out of the situation or give people time to run before I blow up on them. Especially if they're people I don't know that well, the topic isn't worth the effort and/or I don't want seeing my vulnerabilities (Fi). I'll employ it in big groups to keep my cool. My answer to HP in our little...disagreement, was an example of that.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  6. #196
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Bullshit, Pup. That these games win people real life success and money doesn't make them any less... well, successful, I guess.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Not "Acceptable" or Not "nice".
    Acceptable would be Fe
    Nice/kind would be Fi

    I have a toddler who is some sort of little Te tyrant-likely an INTJ. He is selectively aggressive-not to kids at the playground or strangers, but has no hesitation in hitting his 14 yo brother and the dogs and even will hit me when very angry.

    Tim outs are pointless, hand smacks sort of work.

    The best solution? I take his hands and look him in the eyes as say "You hurt the dogs. You have to take care of them as they are your friends. Dont hurt your friends. Hitting them with spoons hurts them." Gently but firmly.

    We repeat for the various objects of dog abuse.

    Yesterday he looked at me as I called the dog stupid. He said "you have to be nice to the dogs. They are our friends. I dont hit the dogs cause they are my friends." Lesson learned.

    Our lesson-Fi showcases pain to force the Te user to feel it. The Te user then learns a new rule about how they shouldnt hurt people.
    It is important to talk to a child in a language they understand. I use acceptable for most children, because some can get very upset if they think you are telling them that they are not "nice" people. I have an ENFP daughter that used to go into an absolute tizzy whenever she was corrected, "repeatedly screaming "I'm bad! I'm a bad, bad girl!" (when she was 3-4). I had no idea what to make of this at first, I was just the opposite. When at three my mother told me I was a very bad girl, I retorted, "I am NOT bad! I just did a bad thing!"

    I try to walk very carefully when talking to children.

    Blueflame, I would only get down on one knee after I asked the mother what she was going to do about her child's hitting problem. This has happened several times at a playground where children are running around hitting other children or adults and moms just sit there chatting happily or looking very tired. When I asked them, they just ignored me. I find this method is very effective with those types of moms. I will NOT let someone else's child be a tyrant at a playground because they are too tired/ignorant to do something about it themselves.

    I am sure that you would not be that kind of mother in the first place. You seem very concerned with doing the right thing.

  8. #198
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    So is a bitchslap for you a release of repressed anger and aggression? Bitchslapping for me was always about a display of dominance or something; a defensive power play; an instantaneous way of setting a clear boundary; a type of cruel and unusual punishment. Hmmm....yea, bitchslapping was definitely a defense move for me. The first two times I did it were when two separate girls, "friends" of mine, attempted to fist fight me in the 9th grade. The only thing I was trying to communicate was that I dared them to touch me.

    The only bitchslap I've ever received came from an ENTP male friend.
    yeah...i don't know i think i recall usually just stating things in a very detached matter of fact way...laying out the facts...only when really pressed would any emotional bits come out...and it comes out a bit stingy...like in a standing up for myself way by saying...listen...this is what i did and why...this is what you did...and this is now what i expect...or this is now what needs to happen kind of way...

    if that makes sense.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post

    When I've gone Te after a hurtful, personal event I can be so decisive and cold, I almost scare myself. It's not a state I wish to be in often, but it has been very good the few times I've had to do it.
    I know what you mean ... I can Fi spew all over the place at first, crying, maybe yelling, but if someone REALLY hurts me, really does something horrible to me I become cold... and almost evil in rare cases where its a personal situation and someone has really violated me. It's like I'm more calculating and distant, and I can verbally abuse people at that point with nasty, creative insults.

  10. #200
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I know what you mean ... I can Fi spew all over the place at first, crying, maybe yelling, but if someone REALLY hurts me, really does something horrible to me I become cold... and almost evil in rare cases where its a personal situation and someone has really violated me. It's like I'm more calculating and distant, and I can verbally abuse people at that point with nasty, creative insults.
    Yeah... I might give the verbal knife caught on the spot. I've shouted at a guy grasping at my breasts: "Hey, you're old and fat and stupid, I can see why no woman would ever let you touch her out of free will, how pathetic it is to see, nobody will ever want you, you know that, so look, the harbour is right here, go jump in! Jump, you're an ugly old fart, come on now, people so sad and unwanted have no reason to live, you know that, and no one will miss you, it's over, you'll never get sex ever again, now go jump in already you sad little man or don't you even dare do that, impotent sissy!"
    Then he started hitting me until my BF came rushing and diverted the violence. )
    I'm happy he didn't jump, we were standing at the edge of the harbour, next to his boat. But I never regretted a word. Boundaries, yeah, albeit a bit black&white in execution... I was 18 at the time.


    If I still have a small emotional opening, thus still *hope* that we can reach eachother I might care to show that I feel angry, offended or something. But if I've given up hope that the other party will understand or be able to respond constructively to such a show of feelings, I will not even bother to insult them with destroying observations. They have turned into an obstacle and I don't express feelings to obstacles. I remove them. So at some point I decide that communication doesn't further the goal I want to reach, and then even sharp, hurting comments is deemed a waste of energy and not worth the effort.

    To me, Te in the service of hurt Fi can be a killer mode. Ice-queen is a good description, Amar. I'm going in to kills something, a connection and thereby a net of potentiality. That's sacrilege for an ENFP, so something dies inside yourself too. Yes, Fi approves that it's necessary in order to keep something more important alive, but still. You die a little, it leaves you somewhat empty and exhausted. I'd mostly rather avoid it.

    But I think the killermode - accepting to kill a network of potential in order to finish some imperfect actuality - could be put to good use at completing tasks at work. If only I could get it activiated without the emotional hurt and anger triggering it ...

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