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  1. #11
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    On another note, I don't see why being "soft" has to imply failure to act appropriately in situations that demand such action. It just means that under certain conditions, one prefers to act in ways that are interpreted as more soft and gentle as opposed to hard or cold (or whatever.)

    So an individual, let's call him Marcell, can still be attributed the character trait of softness without expecting him to, for instance, back out of a confrontation for fear of hurting the other person's feelings or incurring their negative opinion. It just means that in softness-conducive situations, such as, for instance, a situation in which he is dealing with an emotionally hurt friend who's looking for comfort, he will readily respond in a comforting and nurturing way. Someone who is not soft (at least in the sense I've adopted in my example) would not readily or consistently behave in soft ways in softness-conducive situations.

    The point is this:

    I think the OP is criticizing our collective tendency to expect traits such as NF "softness" to manifest themselves (more or less) consistently in soft behaviors across situations. An example of this would be the expectation that an NF be a good listener and comfort to his friends in their hours of need, but be ineffectual as an impartial arbiter of justice. The same softness, presumably derived from some enlarged sense of empathy, is consistently manifested in both situations (comforting friends, operating as impartial judge.) Indeed, this kind of thing is littered throughout MBTI literature, with "positive" and "negative" sides of temperament traits listed in order to come up with career advice (e.g., NT's facility with impartial systems makes mathematics an ideal field, but the same traits that make them good at dealing with impartial systems also make them bad at dealing with people, so they should avoid the helping professions.)

    I agree that this is more than likely nonsense. There is no reason to think that an NF's occupation as, for example, judge, and the actions demanded of that occupation, would not influence his behavior as much or more than any softness in his personality. Otherwise, how could we ever have competent NF judges?

    But I have proposed that one can still have traits attributed to them without the need for cross-situational consistency; there just needs to be consistency in similar situations across time. A soft person is soft because they consistently display soft behaviors in situations that facilitate softness (whew...too many softs in that sentence.) Softness does not need to emerge in situations that don't facilitate it in order to be assigned as a trait to an individual. In fact, the more consistently an individual manifests trait behavior across situations, the more pathological we tend to think of them (behavior clusters are determined to be rooted in pathology the more consistent they are; someone is depressed only if they've shown behaviors that indicate depression in inappropriate situations, which screws up their work lives, for instance, and only if these behaviors have gone on long enough.)

    Thus I think that there is a way to consistently say, going back to Marcell, that he is a soft person, but he is also confrontational and aggressive sometimes when he needs to be. And there is a way to view character traits without assuming consistent manifestation in behavior across situations, which helps us to avoid the problems of stereotyping without abandoning the trait assignation entirely.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  2. #12
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    I don't think "soft" in this context means conflict-avoidant or unable to stand up for one's beliefs; I think it just means tending toward a more humanistic perspective than a coldly impersonal one.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #13
    Member niberrizbe25's Avatar
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    I am so glad that all you idealists are strongly disagreeing with the assumption! It bothers me to no end when I see a nice person being walked on. Genuine connection should be respected and not abused. Too many people try the latter and deserve to get there schemas of reality changed... :steam:

    Sorry. serious malice SERIOUSLY gets me heated.

  4. #14
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    they don't call us the advocate for nothin
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #15
    Member niberrizbe25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    On another note, I don't see why being "soft" has to imply failure to act appropriately in situations that demand such action. It just means that under certain conditions, one prefers to act in ways that are interpreted as more soft and gentle as opposed to hard or cold (or whatever.)

    So an individual, let's call him Marcell, can still be attributed the character trait of softness without expecting him to, for instance, back out of a confrontation for fear of hurting the other person's feelings or incurring their negative opinion. It just means that in softness-conducive situations, such as, for instance, a situation in which he is dealing with an emotionally hurt friend who's looking for comfort, he will readily respond in a comforting and nurturing way. Someone who is not soft (at least in the sense I've adopted in my example) would not readily or consistently behave in soft ways in softness-conducive situations.

    The point is this:

    I think the OP is criticizing our collective tendency to expect traits such as NF "softness" to manifest themselves (more or less) consistently in soft behaviors across situations. An example of this would be the expectation that an NF be a good listener and comfort to his friends in their hours of need, but be ineffectual as an impartial arbiter of justice. The same softness, presumably derived from some enlarged sense of empathy, is consistently manifested in both situations (comforting friends, operating as impartial judge.) Indeed, this kind of thing is littered throughout MBTI literature, with "positive" and "negative" sides of temperament traits listed in order to come up with career advice (e.g., NT's facility with impartial systems makes mathematics an ideal field, but the same traits that make them good at dealing with impartial systems also make them bad at dealing with people, so they should avoid the helping professions.)

    I agree that this is more than likely nonsense. There is no reason to think that an NF's occupation as, for example, judge, and the actions demanded of that occupation, would not influence his behavior as much or more than any softness in his personality. Otherwise, how could we ever have competent NF judges?

    But I have proposed that one can still have traits attributed to them without the need for cross-situational consistency; there just needs to be consistency in similar situations across time. A soft person is soft because they consistently display soft behaviors in situations that facilitate softness (whew...too many softs in that sentence.) Softness does not need to emerge in situations that don't facilitate it in order to be assigned as a trait to an individual.

    Thus I think that there is a way to consistently say, going back to Marcell, that he is a soft person, but he is also confrontational and aggressive sometimes when he needs to be. And there is a way to view character traits without assuming consistent manifestation in behavior across situations, which helps us to avoid the problems of stereotyping without abandoning the trait assignation entirely.
    I agree with your premise. The word softness has many connotations to it. Surely just because you have empathy does not mean you dont have pride or self respect. I liked how you used an actual individual to describe your theory, too.

  6. #16
    Member niberrizbe25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiddykat View Post
    I used to be pretty confrontational when I was in my teens?

    After having to work, go to school, juggle with all sorts of life events, I'm just so tired to have to put up a fight anymore.

    People will be people. If need be, if I'm really irritated, I'll let a person know, or simply will not interact with them. Anger takes too much energy away from me. I need a Red Bull for that. Maybe my blood pressure's waay too low. IDK..

    On the other hand, when I explode, I EXPLODE.
    Maybe some vitamins? You would be surprised how much they help...

  7. #17
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niberrizbe25 View Post
    It bothers me to no end when I see a nice person being walked on. Genuine connection should be respected and not abused..

    Sorry. serious malice SERIOUSLY gets me heated.
    Me 2. I get upset when I see genuine people get trampled on. It also majorly bothers me when I see some douchebag give caveman advice on how "ok" it is to mistreat others, because their "perceived" notion of that person says it's okay to do so...

    You know how much it hurts to see people get destroyed emotionally? Everytime I see that, I swear I just want to strangle that person.

    Kick them in the rear with my pointy boots. Fucker.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by niberrizbe25 View Post
    Hey there Nico here! This is my first thread on this site! Whoho go ahead and break the confety!
    Anyways on a slightly more serious tone, I was exploring the Idyllic based threads and recognize a pattern; it seems that many people deem us to be whishy washy, conflict avoidant and vulnerable. I must admit I find this slightly insulting because I think this kind of behaviour goes against my moral code. Sure the are many people who I concider NF's that have, how should I put it nicely, rainbowtastic antics and are scared of any kind of confrontation. I, for one, have no problem with confrontation; usually, I make my agressors put their own foot in their mouth. I want to see what my fellow NF's have to say about this preconcived stereotype.
    Rant away!
    I relate to this

    Quote Originally Posted by kiddykat View Post
    I used to be pretty confrontational when I was in my teens?

    After having to work, go to school, juggle with all sorts of life events, I'm just so tired to have to put up a fight anymore.

    People will be people. If need be, if I'm really irritated, I'll let a person know, or simply will not interact with them. Anger takes too much energy away from me. I need a Red Bull for that. Maybe my blood pressure's waay too low. IDK..

    On the other hand, when I explode, I EXPLODE.
    and this

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.awesome View Post
    My close friend tested an INFP, to me she seems like an ENFP.. whatever, anywho. She was hated for being confrontational. to be honest she lost way too many friends because when they did something she didnt like, she effing told them. shes totally an exception to that stereotype.
    although i seem to fit it well. hahah
    and your friend here...I think she might be an ENFP, not as exception, but actually as a fairly accurate representation of the type. Not all ENFPs are like this...but there are enough of us that are, including me and my sister.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    they don't call us the advocate for nothin
    Exactly.

  9. #19

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    I've noticed some ENFP profiles say we take up contact sports to prove ourselves because we feel unmanly as F males . I actually really like them. Hockey is like a drug, and football is addictive too.

    I'm not sure how caring for humanity and being lame relate (except if you look at it in really simple terms). How does doing nothing risky and stopping all the fun help humanity?
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  10. #20
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Some people have assumed me to be easy to bulldoze, I think. I can't say I'm entirely sure why, but I had to let them know. Yea, I'm nice and all, but damn, don't try me.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

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