[ENFP] ENFP wants to date INTJ

[gromit]

So, at the suggestion of digesthisickness, I am starting a new thread from this one. I'll copy over what other people had to say too.

I usually find myself dating men who are more like INFJ/ISFJ (?) or something, and it usally ends up terribly. We both end up getting really needy and angst-y and insecure.

Part of me would really like to try dating INTJ men, and part of me suspects that this is the only type of person who could withstand the full emotional and intellectual force of my being. I am always feeling like I need to hold back. However, if I have ever known any (INTJ men), I have felt too intimidated to approach them or even show any interest. I have a couple INTJ women friends, and I love them dearly. They see and understand parts of me like nobody else seems to be able to, and I love them like I love no one else because of that.

So I see potential, but somehow, romantically (i.e. with men), it's really scary. I don't know how to approach it at all. Any ideas? Or, if there's a portion of the topic that already discusses this, could somebody point me to it? I began to read through but only got to about page 10.


What boondocked described, that - as Alanis Morissette would say - intellectual intercourse, actually sounds so wonderful. Sigh...

I loved his brilliant, idiosyncratic brain, the fascinating bends and turns of it. I loved how precise it was, whereas my brain is so wishy washy and impressionistic. And he made me laugh harder than anyone ever had. He was just so bright, so sharp. He liked my abstractions and theories and how I expressed myself, from the way I phrased things to my over-emotive facial expressions :rolli: We both just found the whole thing unbelievably exciting

Hm... I don't really know how to do a quote within a quote.

 

[gromit]

Everyone's comments (I think!)...

Only reading up to page 10 is OK. This is what the thread is really about anyway ... we've been discussing some other tangents.

How to approach an INTJ guy? He's more scared of you than you are of him.

Use your strengths. Just be yourself in front of him. Trust me on this. He will totally get you. Then the hard part: you have to initiate, because he will be too scared to do so. You have to make it bluntly obvious that you like him and want to do something (lunch, a date, whatever) with him. Mostly, though, you'll get to know him because you'll be yourself in front of him, and he'll learn he can be himself in front of you. That's the attraction: as long as there are no odd cultural or value differences, it's easy for each to be into each other. INTJ loves the sparkly, quirky, interesting ENFP personality, and ENFP loves that this calm super-intellectual INTJ takes her as she is. We admire and secretly wish that we could be like the other, but we just aren't.

So, if you have an INTJ guy in mind, and you're interested, just go and play. As long as you allow each other to be naturally ENFP and INTJ, it will work. If you start demanding that he be "more ENFP" or he tries to get you to behave "more INTJ", it will start to break down. The boundary is, I believe, best defined by what MBTI covers: it's fully OK to call the other out on bad behavior, period; it isn't OK to try to change the others' preferences to suit oneself.

i fully agree with the above post. also, i think this particular topic deserves its own thread.

Well, I don't know why, but it's really difficult for me to believe this. Probably on some level I can conceive of it, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind/self around it entirely. I would just imagine that "he" (since there is no specific one right now, though a couple have caught my attention in the past) would have no use for someone like me, would see me as a purely fluffy sparkles person, or would want someone who isn't such a spaz, emotionally or in terms of thought processes, even. I am a thoughtful and intelligent person, but I just also like fun things and silly things and even dumb things.


I don't know... it's easy to tell yourself to just be yourself, but it's really difficult to do when it's a situation that is intimidating.

Ahhhh intellectual intercourse!!! See digest-that's what we are up to in this thread. It's better than online sex. I find it delightful. (I miss your little smoking girl avatar.) Gromit you might try online INTJ chatting. At INTJc, they say they are more talkative online then in real life. And yes they can handle our emo quite well. Total honesty?? I think so.

If you have no idea what to do with an INTJ, say most insane ridiculous goofy thing you can think of, then look them full on, smile and just let yourself glow with love, then giggle. They just stop and stare....

Keep in mind you then are stuck loving them as you cant give Fi like that without actually making an Fi connection. As a result i love all the INTJs I have ever met. Not like sexually, like as in real love and caring.

All my IRL INTJs are women or married men, so never had a relationship with one, just loved them all. They are the only ones who get to see unbridled Fi.

That's what's magical about it. You don't quite believe it can be true, but it is.

Keep in mind, this is a generic template of a dynamic, in that "this is how it happens, when it happens." There are ENFPs who don't particularly like me, and there are others who do. There's always more at play. But when you do like each other, the dynamic is as I describe.

The reason I tell you to be yourself is that being yourself is the only way you can see if it works. If you can't "be yourself," you really don't have a relationship, do you? It'd just be a mutual fascination society, as you both declare "love" for one another, but hold yourselves back.

So, be yourself (within reason, I'm assuming public interactions to start with). If it doesn't work out, you lose nothing. (It isn't as if he was the love of your life beforehand - you don't know him, yet.) If it works out, you have everything to gain. It seems kind of harsh, since it's scary to let yourself be yourself, but that's how you get from point A to point B. It's one of those fears that is worth facing down.

Now, I can understand why you don't believe it could be true. You have this super-serious INTJ - what the heck would he want with a silly person like you? That's why this thread exists: it's one of those matches that seems impossible, but it isn't. Really, deep down, you aren't that silly. You are in fact judging yourself by some very serious standards, if your opinion of yourself is that you're silly. And an INTJ, really, deep down, is silly, and he's hiding that fact from everyone around him, because he let out his silliness as he grew up and determined that he didn't like how people reacted to it.

The real key is that you are both serious AND silly in the same way. It's hard to describe, but that's where the "Fe/Ti vs Te/Fi" posts are coming from - because the same dynamic doesn't happen between INTJs and ENFJs or ENTPs, for example. There is an essential way of looking at the world that ENFP and INTJ both share, but they approach it from opposite ends: ENFP the emotional side, and INTJ the intellectual side. The ENFP "serious side" is very akin to the INTJ's normal mode. The INTJ's "silly side" is very akin to the ENFP's normal mode.

 

[gromit]

Now, I can understand why you don't believe it could be true. You have this super-serious INTJ - what the heck would he want with a silly person like you? That's why this thread exists: it's one of those matches that seems impossible, but it isn't. Really, deep down, you aren't that silly. You are in fact judging yourself by some very serious standards, if your opinion of yourself is that you're silly. And an INTJ, really, deep down, is silly, and he's hiding that fact from everyone around him, because he let out his silliness as he grew up and determined that he didn't like how people reacted to it.

The real key is that you are both serious AND silly in the same way. It's hard to describe, but that's where the "Fe/Ti vs Te/Fi" posts are coming from - because the same dynamic doesn't happen between INTJs and ENFJs or ENTPs, for example. There is an essential way of looking at the world that ENFP and INTJ both share, but they approach it from opposite ends: ENFP the emotional side, and INTJ the intellectual side. The ENFP "serious side" is very akin to the INTJ's normal mode. The INTJ's "silly side" is very akin to the ENFP's normal mode.

Thank you for this perspective. It is astonishingly helpful, actually.

 

[sculpting]

gromit are those neurons perhaps?

 

[gromit]

Yes they are! I thought they were so beautiful.

 

[purplesunset]

I think this relationship would have worked best if you were pleasantly surprised. Like you found someone, things are going wonderfully, then, later, you are bowled over as you find out that he's an INTJ.

However, now you will be seeking INTJ men, and you will have some idealistic expectations of how great the relationship is going to be. Alas..if he falls short of those expectations in any way...

Also, as has been established in other threads, ascertaining type based on outward characteristics and behaviors isn't terribly reliable. The way to be sure is if you go around asking men what their type is... right in-between taking bites out of your salad while you two are on a date.

 

[CzeCze]

Wow...I'm just thinking about the part where both of you get needy and insecure and angsty...how is that even possible?

 

[sculpting]

Wow...I'm just thinking about the part where both of you get needy and insecure and angsty...how is that even possible?

I have seen INTJs get kinda odd, but I always understand what to do without thinking about it-friends, not lovers though. They mostly need you to hug them or touch them. I know seems dangerous, but makes sense in the moment.

Normally when I am all emo-dumb, the INTJs just look at me, then say hysterical things which immediately make me reflect upon my emo silliness. Once I wrote this sad, mournful poem about dissolving into waves and some such silliness and sent it to my ENTP friends. They said nothing-they were like what the hell do I do with this???? My best friend ENTP said "You appear to be "feeling" something"

I copied my INTJ friend too. She relied back "Your poem makes me want to pee. " I just started laughing my ass off. It's like INTJs possess total enfp-emo quench-power.

 

[CzeCze]

That 'emo poem' email and reaction reminds me of something an INXP friend sent my ISTJ friend. Her reaction was ruthless, basically, "WTF is this and what do you expect me to do with it?" LOL.

I like the idea of "emo quench power" in a way that makes you laugh and makes you feel secure. I could see how two NFs could end up exacerbating the situation in our attempts to console/help one another.

 

[purplesunset]

I think that with NT's there is a distinction in the way we react to pure, abstract emotions, and the way we react to raw/spontaneous emotions.

For example, I had an INTP friend in college (I'm INTJ) and we both loved Romantic Era poetry, taking pictures of clouds, and whenever he talked about his little brother it was with the utmost tenderness that I never saw from anyone else regardless of type.



However, we were NT's for sure (he was a math major, and I was a physics major at that time), and people would view us as blunt, unemotional or stoic. If someone had come up to either one of us and started crying on our shoulders, we wouldn't know what to do. Probably awkwardly pat them on the back while we failed to suppress an aghast look on our faces.

For NT's, there must be a difference then between

---the abstract, pure emotion that is found in poetry, literature, or when reflecting on someone we care about, and

--- the raw, spontaneous emotion that is found in someone who comes for a shoulder to cry on, or someone who sends us a melodramatic poem via e-mail.

We can do very well with the former, but the latter can be downright horrifying (whether it is from ourselves or from another)

Hopefully, this would help you in some way if you find your INTJ mate.

 

[gromit]

I think this relationship would have worked best if you were pleasantly surprised. Like you found someone, things are going wonderfully, then, later, you are bowled over as you find out that he's an INTJ.

However, now you will be seeking INTJ men, and you will have some idealistic expectations of how great the relationship is going to be. Alas..if he falls short of those expectations in any way...

Also, as has been established in other threads, ascertaining type based on outward characteristics and behaviors isn't terribly reliable. The way to be sure is if you go around asking men what their type is... right in-between taking bites out of your salad while you two are on a date.

Ha ha ha. Well I guess I have been going with how terrified they make me feel --- in a certain, specific way, based on past experiences. But that might not be the greatest criteria.

 

[purplesunset]

That 'emo poem' email and reaction reminds me of something an INXP friend sent my ISTJ friend. Her reaction was ruthless, basically, "WTF is this and what do you expect me to do with it?"

Be careful with this "emo-squashing" thing though.

If someone truly is devoid of emotions/empathy, they are NOT a thinker.

They likely have some kind of neurosis which makes them a sociopath or they lie somewhere on the autism spectrum.


Both thinkers and feelers have emotions. As I said on page 1, the difference might be that feelers are much more sophisticated and intelligent when it comes to dealing with melodrama or raw, spontaneous emotions. Thinkers are left at a loss of what to do, or try to stifle them... sometimes at their own peril.

 

[Uytuun]

I like the idea of "emo quench power" in a way that makes you laugh and makes you feel secure. I could see how two NFs could end up exacerbating the situation in our attempts to console/help one another.

INTJs can be NFy in this regard and take your feelings "too" seriously or get lost in them, though. I've seen this in males and females, old and young.

 

[cmrain]

For NT's, there must be a difference then between

---the abstract, pure emotion that is found in poetry, literature, or when reflecting on someone we care about, and

--- the raw, spontaneous emotion that is found in someone who comes for a shoulder to cry on, or someone who sends us a melodramatic poem via e-mail.

We can do very well with the former, but the latter can be downright horrifying (whether it is from ourselves or from another)

We INTJ types do a wonderful job of expressing our emotions intellectually. That may be the best way for other personality types to understand how we express our many feelings. Just because it may be abstract does not make it any less real for us. In fact we may feel more emotion and feel more alive in that case. Literature and poetry are excellent venues. Our Te extroverted thinking function has a veritable hay day. Te as an auxiliary function also seems to be critical in a match with an ENFP. I find ENFP's very easy to talk to and very easy to approach. Not so with other types.

Good example.

 

[Frank]

I think this relationship would have worked best if you were pleasantly surprised. Like you found someone, things are going wonderfully, then, later, you are bowled over as you find out that he's an INTJ.

However, now you will be seeking INTJ men, and you will have some idealistic expectations of how great the relationship is going to be. Alas..if he falls short of those expectations in any way...
Also, as has been established in other threads, ascertaining type based on outward characteristics and behaviors isn't terribly reliable. The way to be sure is if you go around asking men what their type is... right in-between taking bites out of your salad while you two are on a date.

Valid point.

 

[Laurie]

I think it's easier to bond with an F relationship wise (you take less of a chance with your feelings), but I'm not sure that means it's the best choice.

 

[boondocked]

See, and I find it easier dating T men. The T always gets me cause it seems aloof, but after we've been dating awhile and we fall in the love, the chill goes completely away and the T/F divide only really comes up during arguments. As long as you've got a dude willing to compromise, it should all be cake or gravy or something else that's deceptively simple.

As for dating an INTJ, I agree with purplesunset in that it's best to like someone and then find out they are an INTJ. Attraction is always the first step, at least for me. I'm sure there are INTJs that would put me off my lunch and I'm sure there are INTJs who wouldn't be down for the disorganized, disorientating experience of dating me.

That said, I'm often drawn to INTJs off the bat, and they to me. They're intimidating because they're so self-sufficient and independent, but WE ARE TOO. If we work at it. And we bring happiness wherever we go, and why wouldn't the INTJ want that? In my experience, INTJs first find this cheerfulness amusing then find it loveable and then impossible to be without. Because it's not a thoughtless happiness, but an exuberance for living.

When it comes to getting really close to an INTJ, I think of it as a long path with LOTS of gateways. At each gateway, he/she has to make a decision for or against even more closeness. Once the decision is made, the INTJ DOESN'T go back and re-evaluate. He's decided on you. As long as he keeps deciding on you at every gateway, there is no limit to the emotional depths the relationship can reach.

My INTJ ex-boyfriend and I had a tremendous relationship, though, so I'm biased. Sometimes I think I over-romanticize it because HEY!, that's what I do, but my brother confirms that it was as great to watch as it was for me to experience. In the end, though, I was very fundamentally unready to settle down permanently.

So beware, you may find that after all the effort to snag an INTJ, you'll run into a hitch with your own self! It happens.

Good luck tah yah.

 

[uumlau]

And we bring happiness wherever we go, and why wouldn't the INTJ want that? In my experience, INTJs first find this cheerfulness amusing then find it loveable and then impossible to be without. Because it's not a thoughtless happiness, but an exuberance for living.

 

[Thalassa]

I copied my INTJ friend too. She relied back "Your poem makes me want to pee. " I just started laughing my ass off. It's like INTJs possess total enfp-emo quench-power.

I sometimes wonder if my best friend from high school is an ENTJ and not an ENFJ...she says stuff like "your poem makes me want to pee" ALL OF THE TIME. She's also tested as ENTJ before. I've known her since she was 14, and one of the things that I love love love about her is that wacky, weird, strangely comforting yet vaguely insulting sense of humor and quick wit that she has. I wonder if it's an NTJ thing or just an Ni thing, in which case she's still ENFJ.

Back on topic, I agree with whomever is saying that INTJs are a little intimidating. I feel that too.

 

[Heart&Brain]

That said, I'm often drawn to INTJs off the bat, and they to me. They're intimidating because they're so self-sufficient and independent, but WE ARE TOO. If we work at it. And we bring happiness wherever we go, and why wouldn't the INTJ want that? In my experience, INTJs first find this cheerfulness amusing then find it loveable and then impossible to be without. Because it's not a thoughtless happiness, but an exuberance for living.

If this is true, does it then follow that an INTJ would find the ENFP unattractive and disappointing when the ENFP has periods of being introspective, serious or depressed?