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  1. #41
    Senior Member Cybin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    VERY subjective vs. VERY objective
    No, both are subjective judging processes. As in, Ji needs a consistant internal understanding based on their subjective knowledge and interpretation.

    More specifically it is subject oriented vs object oriented.

  2. #42
    Glycerine
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    yeah good point.

  3. #43
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velocity View Post
    principles, values
    Eh, I'd say that the Fi-dom has very broad base principles he/she is working off of to form those personal values. In hearing other INFPs discuss their Fi, it's clear that the values are formed based on feeling-concepts that basically amount to fundamental principles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chunes View Post
    INFPs are more comfortable being at odds with traditional logic, and even feel like it gets in the way of more important things.
    I like this because I feel the realms that the INFP deals in most & best have little to do with logic, even if we are using a form of rational reasoning (which we are - I'll stress that Feeling in MBTI is NOT emotion). "Pure logic" can be too limiting and narrow, and frankly, just miss the point sometimes.

    There was a great thread at another MBTI board called "INFP: Logic vs Rationality" that an INTP started. I'm copying some of my answers from there because I think a lot of the questions asked hit at the core of the Ti vs Fi issue. (There are other posters' answers that are great, but I'm not linking to the thread because I don't know if that's appropriate (?).)

    Quote Originally Posted by other MBTI board discussion
    What is the nature of the inspection? Logic or rationality?

    INFPs, in determining the soundness (or lack thereof) of one of your values, do you use slight, moderate, or extreme logical deduction, or do you just need for things to "make sense"? Do you need to get into technicalities, or do you feel that you know through general reasoning* whether or not something would qualify as X. Do you go by a) practical benefit, b) universal (multiple perspective) consequence, c) empathy ("if I were in his circumstances..."), or d) other?
    I'd say b, c and d. D being an analytical process or a deduction as you say. I do tend to be satisfied with things "making sense", but I will break down the nitty gritty of an issue to make sure it's all consistent. I tend to start with that whole "knowing" feeling you speak of, which is very holistic, and I work out why I have that feeling. I make sense of it through analysis. I don't think I am as concerned with the parts as much as an INTP, but I do analyze a LOT.

    I will also need to take in a lot of info and consider many possibilities (probably Ne) before I can come to a conclusion. I've recognized that my reasoning process is detached from the external, so I have to make sure I am not just pulling stuff out of the sky . However, sometimes it's hard to find anything concrete to support Feeling judgments, because they are coming from these large, vague, conceptual principles that are hard to prove externally. I don't think Ti-doms face the same challenge.

    The need for harmony of feeling-thoughts can actually cause much "inner turmoil" within an INFP, which I think is experienced less in an INTP because they tend to be less focused on trying to make sense of subjective issues & often can use objective measures to support their thoughts. I think the INFP often struggles to find any external support with the realms we tend to deal with. I like to think of Fi as considering the inconsistent variable that is HUMANITY, which allows for a bending of logic to accommodate people & everything about them that is wonderfully passionate & irrational. Probably why we have a tendency for empathy & compassion, even when we think someone is being irrational. Strict logic may be at odds with this angle, but we are capable of it (see below), if the situation is clearly impersonal. However, there are times when strict logic will feel irrational to an INFP, because the situation is clearly personal. The bottom line is, TRUTH is the goal, not just some fuzzy wuzzy good feeling.

    According to Gifts Differing, a Thinker prefers impersonal reasoning and a Feeler prefers personal reasoning when an issue is in the gray area and could be decided with either. So an INFP most definitely can use impersonal reasoning when a situation is clearly impersonal, and I'm sure a mature INTP can use personal reasoning when its called for.

    ......

    I think I prefer rationality and use strict logic when it's necessary. There is most certainly a "ruthless inspection" though.

    ....

    [I have] a near instant value judgment in the form of "resonating"..... it almost feels "backwards" at times. I have a strong feeling that's a "conclusion" and then I work it out through reason to verify that it's valid.
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    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #44
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    ^ i do identify with what orangeappled wrote. that's how i work out my values... i have these feelings and then i go check if they can make sense. the core values i have i have really worked hard on like this.

    i definitely use both logic and feeling. with logic things are simpler, in a way, and with feeling they are there, but you can't really objectively explain them...

    i suppose i've become even more sensitive over the years, or it's possible i always was (it's actually probable), but had to toughen up... after all, i was raised by two TJs

    i'm not sure how much sense i am making in this thread, though, lol.

  5. #45
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    INTPs suppress and detach from their feelings, preferring to simply not deal with them if they don't have to.

    INFPs gorge on them.

    Hello

  6. #46
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybin View Post
    No, both are subjective judging processes. As in, Ji needs a consistant internal understanding based on their subjective knowledge and interpretation.

    More specifically it is subject oriented vs object oriented.
    what are you talking about?

  7. #47
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvonne View Post
    what are you talking about?
    When he says subjective, he means specific to the individual - Ti and Fi drive people to understand things for themselves, and make decisions based on what they know as individuals, as opposed to relying on objective criteria to make decisions for them.
    Hello

  8. #48
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    oh, ok.

    to me, scientifically proven things are true (in the specific context), at least until proven false. feelings are subjective, universal and complex.

    the word objective is a strong statement to me. it's as if it implies that someone knows the truth...

    i apologize for being vague, or possibly not making much sense, lol.

  9. #49
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvonne View Post
    oh, ok.

    to me, scientifically proven things are true (in the specific context), at least until proven false. feelings are subjective, universal and complex.

    the word objective is a strong statement to me. it's as if it implies that someone knows the truth...

    i apologize for being vague, or possibly not making much sense, lol.
    Objective and subjective are rather overloaded terms in MBTI. F is subjective, T is objective, but both in terms of subject matter. Fe is "objective" but in a different way (it's focused on others, not the self), Ti is "subjective" understanding of "objective" material.

    So, the problem with the language isn't particular to you.

    Personally, I'd say "give it time." You have your type mostly figured out. The rest will slowly gel as you are exposed to more material and more people and more examples.

    Another thing to try: look up youtube videos of particular types. This is a good way to understand the "vibe" of each type. With several videos, you gradually filter out those who are mistyped, or who have particular personality quirks that have nothing to do with type, and start to see common traits. Being the internet, there are plenty of INxx videos in spite INxx types generally being shy and unwilling to make public presentations, so there's plenty of material to sift through. Such case examples will explain certain essential aspects of typology that are difficult to put into words.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Eh, I'd say that the Fi-dom has very broad base principles he/she is working off of to form those personal values. In hearing other INFPs discuss their Fi, it's clear that the values are formed based on feeling-concepts that basically amount to fundamental principles.



    I like this because I feel the realms that the INFP deals in most & best have little to do with logic, even if we are using a form of rational reasoning (which we are - I'll stress that Feeling in MBTI is NOT emotion). "Pure logic" can be too limiting and narrow, and frankly, just miss the point sometimes.

    There was a great thread at another MBTI board called "INFP: Logic vs Rationality" that an INTP started. I'm copying some of my answers from there because I think a lot of the questions asked hit at the core of the Ti vs Fi issue. (There are other posters' answers that are great, but I'm not linking to the thread because I don't know if that's appropriate (?).)



    I'd say b, c and d. D being an analytical process or a deduction as you say. I do tend to be satisfied with things "making sense", but I will break down the nitty gritty of an issue to make sure it's all consistent. I tend to start with that whole "knowing" feeling you speak of, which is very holistic, and I work out why I have that feeling. I make sense of it through analysis. I don't think I am as concerned with the parts as much as an INTP, but I do analyze a LOT.

    I will also need to take in a lot of info and consider many possibilities (probably Ne) before I can come to a conclusion. I've recognized that my reasoning process is detached from the external, so I have to make sure I am not just pulling stuff out of the sky . However, sometimes it's hard to find anything concrete to support Feeling judgments, because they are coming from these large, vague, conceptual principles that are hard to prove externally. I don't think Ti-doms face the same challenge.

    The need for harmony of feeling-thoughts can actually cause much "inner turmoil" within an INFP, which I think is experienced less in an INTP because they tend to be less focused on trying to make sense of subjective issues & often can use objective measures to support their thoughts. I think the INFP often struggles to find any external support with the realms we tend to deal with. I like to think of Fi as considering the inconsistent variable that is HUMANITY, which allows for a bending of logic to accommodate people & everything about them that is wonderfully passionate & irrational. Probably why we have a tendency for empathy & compassion, even when we think someone is being irrational. Strict logic may be at odds with this angle, but we are capable of it (see below), if the situation is clearly impersonal. However, there are times when strict logic will feel irrational to an INFP, because the situation is clearly personal. The bottom line is, TRUTH is the goal, not just some fuzzy wuzzy good feeling.

    According to Gifts Differing, a Thinker prefers impersonal reasoning and a Feeler prefers personal reasoning when an issue is in the gray area and could be decided with either. So an INFP most definitely can use impersonal reasoning when a situation is clearly impersonal, and I'm sure a mature INTP can use personal reasoning when its called for.

    ......

    I think I prefer rationality and use strict logic when it's necessary. There is most certainly a "ruthless inspection" though.

    ....

    [I have] a near instant value judgment in the form of "resonating"..... it almost feels "backwards" at times. I have a strong feeling that's a "conclusion" and then I work it out through reason to verify that it's valid.
    __________________
    I like this whole post; this is very much how I operate in the world (Fi). The bolded part is especially true for me. TRUTH is the goal. . Thanks for copying from the other board.

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