[Jungian Cognitive Functions] the differences between INTP and INFP

[Cybin]

VERY subjective vs. VERY objective

No, both are subjective judging processes. As in, Ji needs a consistant internal understanding based on their subjective knowledge and interpretation.

More specifically it is subject oriented vs object oriented.

 

[Glycerine]

yeah good point.

 

[OrangeAppled]

principles, values

Eh, I'd say that the Fi-dom has very broad base principles he/she is working off of to form those personal values. In hearing other INFPs discuss their Fi, it's clear that the values are formed based on feeling-concepts that basically amount to fundamental principles.

INFPs are more comfortable being at odds with traditional logic, and even feel like it gets in the way of more important things.

I like this because I feel the realms that the INFP deals in most & best have little to do with logic, even if we are using a form of rational reasoning (which we are - I'll stress that Feeling in MBTI is NOT emotion). "Pure logic" can be too limiting and narrow, and frankly, just miss the point sometimes.

There was a great thread at another MBTI board called "INFP: Logic vs Rationality" that an INTP started. I'm copying some of my answers from there because I think a lot of the questions asked hit at the core of the Ti vs Fi issue. (There are other posters' answers that are great, but I'm not linking to the thread because I don't know if that's appropriate (?).)

What is the nature of the inspection? Logic or rationality?

INFPs, in determining the soundness (or lack thereof) of one of your values, do you use slight, moderate, or extreme logical deduction, or do you just need for things to "make sense"? Do you need to get into technicalities, or do you feel that you know through general reasoning* whether or not something would qualify as X. Do you go by a) practical benefit, b) universal (multiple perspective) consequence, c) empathy ("if I were in his circumstances..."), or d) other?

I'd say b, c and d. D being an analytical process or a deduction as you say. I do tend to be satisfied with things "making sense", but I will break down the nitty gritty of an issue to make sure it's all consistent. I tend to start with that whole "knowing" feeling you speak of, which is very holistic, and I work out why I have that feeling. I make sense of it through analysis. I don't think I am as concerned with the parts as much as an INTP, but I do analyze a LOT.

I will also need to take in a lot of info and consider many possibilities (probably Ne) before I can come to a conclusion. I've recognized that my reasoning process is detached from the external, so I have to make sure I am not just pulling stuff out of the sky . However, sometimes it's hard to find anything concrete to support Feeling judgments, because they are coming from these large, vague, conceptual principles that are hard to prove externally. I don't think Ti-doms face the same challenge.

The need for harmony of feeling-thoughts can actually cause much "inner turmoil" within an INFP, which I think is experienced less in an INTP because they tend to be less focused on trying to make sense of subjective issues & often can use objective measures to support their thoughts. I think the INFP often struggles to find any external support with the realms we tend to deal with. I like to think of Fi as considering the inconsistent variable that is HUMANITY, which allows for a bending of logic to accommodate people & everything about them that is wonderfully passionate & irrational. Probably why we have a tendency for empathy & compassion, even when we think someone is being irrational. Strict logic may be at odds with this angle, but we are capable of it (see below), if the situation is clearly impersonal. However, there are times when strict logic will feel irrational to an INFP, because the situation is clearly personal. The bottom line is, TRUTH is the goal, not just some fuzzy wuzzy good feeling.

According to Gifts Differing, a Thinker prefers impersonal reasoning and a Feeler prefers personal reasoning when an issue is in the gray area and could be decided with either. So an INFP most definitely can use impersonal reasoning when a situation is clearly impersonal, and I'm sure a mature INTP can use personal reasoning when its called for.

......

I think I prefer rationality and use strict logic when it's necessary. There is most certainly a "ruthless inspection" though.

....

[I have] a near instant value judgment in the form of "resonating"..... it almost feels "backwards" at times. I have a strong feeling that's a "conclusion" and then I work it out through reason to verify that it's valid.
__________________

 

[yvonne]

^ i do identify with what orangeappled wrote. that's how i work out my values... i have these feelings and then i go check if they can make sense. the core values i have i have really worked hard on like this.

i definitely use both logic and feeling. with logic things are simpler, in a way, and with feeling they are there, but you can't really objectively explain them...

i suppose i've become even more sensitive over the years, or it's possible i always was (it's actually probable), but had to toughen up... after all, i was raised by two TJs

i'm not sure how much sense i am making in this thread, though, lol.

 

[VagrantFarce]

INTPs suppress and detach from their feelings, preferring to simply not deal with them if they don't have to.

INFPs gorge on them.

 

[yvonne]

No, both are subjective judging processes. As in, Ji needs a consistant internal understanding based on their subjective knowledge and interpretation.

More specifically it is subject oriented vs object oriented.

what are you talking about?

 

[VagrantFarce]

what are you talking about?

When he says subjective, he means specific to the individual - Ti and Fi drive people to understand things for themselves, and make decisions based on what they know as individuals, as opposed to relying on objective criteria to make decisions for them.

 

[yvonne]

oh, ok.

to me, scientifically proven things are true (in the specific context), at least until proven false. feelings are subjective, universal and complex.

the word objective is a strong statement to me. it's as if it implies that someone knows the truth...

i apologize for being vague, or possibly not making much sense, lol.

 

[uumlau]

oh, ok.

to me, scientifically proven things are true (in the specific context), at least until proven false. feelings are subjective, universal and complex.

the word objective is a strong statement to me. it's as if it implies that someone knows the truth...

i apologize for being vague, or possibly not making much sense, lol.

Objective and subjective are rather overloaded terms in MBTI. F is subjective, T is objective, but both in terms of subject matter. Fe is "objective" but in a different way (it's focused on others, not the self), Ti is "subjective" understanding of "objective" material.

So, the problem with the language isn't particular to you.

Personally, I'd say "give it time." You have your type mostly figured out. The rest will slowly gel as you are exposed to more material and more people and more examples.

Another thing to try: look up youtube videos of particular types. This is a good way to understand the "vibe" of each type. With several videos, you gradually filter out those who are mistyped, or who have particular personality quirks that have nothing to do with type, and start to see common traits. Being the internet, there are plenty of INxx videos in spite INxx types generally being shy and unwilling to make public presentations, so there's plenty of material to sift through. Such case examples will explain certain essential aspects of typology that are difficult to put into words.

 

[Lauren]

Eh, I'd say that the Fi-dom has very broad base principles he/she is working off of to form those personal values. In hearing other INFPs discuss their Fi, it's clear that the values are formed based on feeling-concepts that basically amount to fundamental principles.



I like this because I feel the realms that the INFP deals in most & best have little to do with logic, even if we are using a form of rational reasoning (which we are - I'll stress that Feeling in MBTI is NOT emotion). "Pure logic" can be too limiting and narrow, and frankly, just miss the point sometimes.

There was a great thread at another MBTI board called "INFP: Logic vs Rationality" that an INTP started. I'm copying some of my answers from there because I think a lot of the questions asked hit at the core of the Ti vs Fi issue. (There are other posters' answers that are great, but I'm not linking to the thread because I don't know if that's appropriate (?).)



I'd say b, c and d. D being an analytical process or a deduction as you say. I do tend to be satisfied with things "making sense", but I will break down the nitty gritty of an issue to make sure it's all consistent. I tend to start with that whole "knowing" feeling you speak of, which is very holistic, and I work out why I have that feeling. I make sense of it through analysis. I don't think I am as concerned with the parts as much as an INTP, but I do analyze a LOT.

I will also need to take in a lot of info and consider many possibilities (probably Ne) before I can come to a conclusion. I've recognized that my reasoning process is detached from the external, so I have to make sure I am not just pulling stuff out of the sky . However, sometimes it's hard to find anything concrete to support Feeling judgments, because they are coming from these large, vague, conceptual principles that are hard to prove externally. I don't think Ti-doms face the same challenge.

The need for harmony of feeling-thoughts can actually cause much "inner turmoil" within an INFP, which I think is experienced less in an INTP because they tend to be less focused on trying to make sense of subjective issues & often can use objective measures to support their thoughts. I think the INFP often struggles to find any external support with the realms we tend to deal with. I like to think of Fi as considering the inconsistent variable that is HUMANITY, which allows for a bending of logic to accommodate people & everything about them that is wonderfully passionate & irrational. Probably why we have a tendency for empathy & compassion, even when we think someone is being irrational. Strict logic may be at odds with this angle, but we are capable of it (see below), if the situation is clearly impersonal. However, there are times when strict logic will feel irrational to an INFP, because the situation is clearly personal. The bottom line is, TRUTH is the goal, not just some fuzzy wuzzy good feeling.

According to Gifts Differing, a Thinker prefers impersonal reasoning and a Feeler prefers personal reasoning when an issue is in the gray area and could be decided with either. So an INFP most definitely can use impersonal reasoning when a situation is clearly impersonal, and I'm sure a mature INTP can use personal reasoning when its called for.

......

I think I prefer rationality and use strict logic when it's necessary. There is most certainly a "ruthless inspection" though.

....

[I have] a near instant value judgment in the form of "resonating"..... it almost feels "backwards" at times. I have a strong feeling that's a "conclusion" and then I work it out through reason to verify that it's valid.
__________________

I like this whole post; this is very much how I operate in the world (Fi). The bolded part is especially true for me. TRUTH is the goal. . Thanks for copying from the other board.

 

[yvonne]

the terms are pretty confusing, yeah... i'm still not sure if i understand (i probably would need you to explain Te and Fi to me as well... no pressure, though, lol)

thanks for the suggestions, too. i went and looked up a few videos. i think i identified more with the INTP girls than the INFP girls. most of the girls in the videos i watched were pretty young, though, and that's just the general vibe i got from a few videos, so...

perhaps one day i'll settle on a type... i've been looking around these pages also and there are things about both types i identify with...

it was quite funny to read an INFP thread about being "a weirdo magnet" ... i've noticed that happening to me in recent years. at one time i was walking down the street and this stranger came to talk to me about his cancer. i've had a lot of people come to me and ask me for help, or things... like helping to get a friend home, or asking for something... i don't know if i look "nice", or why they always seem to find me, lol. i've found that people tend to open up to me. perhaps it's because i can sort of sense, if someone is in need of something?

i don't see myself as dreamy as the general vibe i'm getting from INFPs, though...

 

[Lauren]

[I have] a near instant value judgment in the form of "resonating"..... it almost feels "backwards" at times. I have a strong feeling that's a "conclusion" and then I work it out through reason to verify that it's valid.


And this too. Very much me. I always reach a resonating conclusion and work through it by reasoning. Although the reasoning usually doesn't produce a different conclusion than the "resonating" It's because I trust that resonating so much that the reasoning doesn't help much. It is important to consult, though. (Te). When I do, it usually helps me to obtain perspective. I still rely on the gut feeling, though. It's hard to shake that gut feeling because it's usually proven to be right, even if I can't verify it. So I contradicted myself in this answer, but...

 

[Cybin]

what are you talking about?

I'm sorry, I didn't see that you had replied. Others answered this question, but I feel the need to elaborate as well. It's just a pet peeve of mine the way subjective and objective are used.

Fi and Ti are subjective judgment processes. Meaning, they base decisions on their personal understanding of how the world works. Fi bases on subjective information in that they tend to lean on the side of basing decisions on how the result affects the individual situation. Fi analyzes and keeps a mental framework of what is important to individuals. Ti analyzes systems andthe objective. They prefer to lean towards the side of impersonal decision making because the way the outcome is is more important that how the outcome affects who is involved. Obviously, either type could do either method, it's about preference here.

This also is the reason ti-fe are paired. Ti takes the objective view. So in social situations it views the actual interactions and makes decisions on that information rather than each person involved. That is Fe, which is an objective decision making process. Fe-Ti is the reverse, starting with the interactions and later coming inward to analyze.

Fi-Te is used by implementing what is valued objectively. Think of the stereotypical Fi-crusade when a cause has been deemed worthy, it is attempted to be systematically implemented. Te-Fi is reversed in that it uses what it knows as effective and just based on their values (Fi).

I apologize, that was probably convoluted...

 

[brainheart]

...what I'm coming into realizing is that it has a bit more to do with emotional reciprocation. A feeler is going to enjoy activities that focus around forming a rapport because that is what they are good at. It would seem natural to want to involve themselves in activities that build this. And a thinker will not have as good a natural rapport with people and will prefer activities that they are more successful at that do not require a strong focus on rapport, such as communication through writing, email, and more formal, frank, and to the point discussion that aids in the fulfillment of a goal not related to rapport.

This is so excellent.

I would like to add, if you are a female, what are your friendships like? Do you have a very select, old coterie of female friends because you "know where you stand, and it's easy, and they know what you're like"? Meanwhile, do you find yourself gravitating to the men in a group of strangers, and it's not to flirt, but because they're "easier to talk to" and you find the conversations more compelling?

I don't know how valid this is, but that's been my experience.

 

[brainheart]

Also, according to Lenore Thomson, a Jungian theorist, Ti is in actuality subjective (not objective) logic. It "operates by way of visual, tactile, or spatial cues, inclining us to reason experientially rather than analytically... NTPs have a strong interest in patterns and their structural relationship to an immediate context." In other words, it has to do with reasoning within the moment vs a detached objectivity like Te.

Here's what she has to say about the difference between Ti and Fi:

"Ti is dispassionate and impersonal, prompting an interest in systemic logic: the probable consequences of immediate choice. ITPs are usually creative technicians of some sort who reason literally in terms of patterns and emerging variables... each decision affects the whole, creating new consequences and possibilities.

"Fi focuses our attention differently. It encourages a personal relationship, a will to gauge a situation by an experiential ideal... Most IFPs have some investment in an activity that will express their fundamental sense of harmony with life."

 

[bcvcdc]

I still rely on the gut feeling, though. It's hard to shake that gut feeling because it's usually proven to be right, even if I can't verify it.

oh yeah, that makes sense - if it cannot be verified how do you know it's been proven right.

 

[OrangeAppled]

It seems like for the most part people tend to type themselves based on filling in which of the above they are mostly like, but what I'm coming into realizing is that it has a bit more to do with emotional reciprocation. A feeler is going to enjoy activities that focus around forming a rapport because that is what they are good at. It would seem natural to want to involve themselves in activities that build this. And a thinker will not have as good a natural rapport with people and will prefer activities that they are more successful at that do not require a strong focus on rapport, such as communication through writing, email, and more formal, frank, and to the point discussion that aids in the fulfillment of a goal not related to rapport.

I disagree with this, because as usual, this sounds like Feeling from a Fe perspective. Fi is more intrapersonal, not interpersonal. I am NOT a people-person....I suck at "rapport" and it doesn't much interest me. I don't think this makes me an atypical Fi-dom, rather, I'm just oblivious to what Fe types have set as "polite". It's very important to me to be true to my inner self, sometimes to the detriment of my social skills. I'm also an introvert who is much more at home in my head than in socializing with people, even one-on-one. Many INFPs say they prefer writing to people over talking; I also find it's much easier to express myself that way without offending or confusing people. I've had to learn in business to not just get to the point, as people expect "schmoozing" (which I loathe and abominate).

Also, INFPs are called "healers"....think about what that implies. It's not about the relationship between myself & someone else, but about every individual's relationship with themselves, and my relationship with myself. I like to connect with people on a deeper level, true, but it has little to do with the external feeling created. It's about the internal feelings, and keeping it authentic and pure, and that's not always a nice, pretty process because you have to unearth those feelings to begin with, many of which are ugly.

Nothing drives me crazier than when people ignore the elephant in the room to keep peace. I just want to tear down the polite BS and say what I'm really feeling, and hear what they are really feeling, or else life just ends up being a facade.

"Fi focuses our attention differently. It encourages a personal relationship, a will to gauge a situation by an experiential ideal... Most IFPs have some investment in an activity that will express their fundamental sense of harmony with life."

I think she's referring to personal relationship between the idea and the Fi-dom, not personal relationships with people. The Fi-dom relates everything to himself to understand it, although it's not a direct, clear relating. It goes back to that vague feeling of resonating within. Without this, the Fi-dom does not have an internal harmony, as everything needs to be consistent with the Fi-dom's personal values.

 

[brainheart]

I think she's referring to personal relationship between the idea and the Fi-dom, not personal relationships with people.

Yes, I am. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[brainheart]

I disagree with this, because as usual, this sounds like Feeling from a Fe perspective. Fi is more intrapersonal, not interpersonal. I am NOT a people-person....I suck at "rapport" and it doesn't much interest me. I don't think this makes me an atypical Fi-dom, rather, I'm just oblivious to what Fe types have set as "polite". It's very important to me to be true to my inner self, sometimes to the detriment of my social skills. I'm also an introvert who is much more at home in my head than in socializing with people, even one-on-one. Many INFPs say they prefer writing to people over talking; I also find it's much easier to express myself that way without offending or confusing people. I've had to learn in business to not just get to the point, as people expect "schmoozing" (which I loathe and abominate).

Hmm, I think what I latched onto about what he was saying is that all of the INFPs and ENFPS I know personally still have the rapport. For example, one of my INFP friends is a social worker, and she does her woman poetry-reading groups, and she has a fairly large number of female friends. With strangers, she's not necessarily warm in a Fe sense (and she hates to schmooze), but there still is a semblance of warmth, a desire for human connection. You can sense a sweetness.

Meanwhile, I handle it more with 'the laws' of interaction if I really have to... she has this joke with me about my being a 'stern Victorian woman' because I can seem very rigid and proper in my interactions, because that is what I have learned and so I use it- it's efficient, it gets to the point, and maybe I have a hard time being sweet and 'womanly', but at least I say, 'thank you'. (I'm not like this all of the time, by any means, but it is how I become when I'm uncomfortable and I have no alcohol around to unbridle me or a corner to hide in. Come to think of it, this sounds an awful lot like inferior Fe in action...)

 

[Lauren]

oh yeah, that makes sense - if it cannot be verified how do you know it's been proven right.

Yes, it does make sense because for at least this INFP, a conclusion cannot often be verified externally. It's been proven right for me because what I've guessed to be the truth of a situation eventually has proven to be accurate, not because of hard and fast external verification but because the other person in the relationship responds in a way to verify that my feelings were accurate. Again, I don't think of that as a positive external validation, as in proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, but people often don't give you that absolute external validation but only a sense that they picked up on your thoughts (my gut feeling) and are running with it. Intuition leaps to a conclusion but doesn't need the steps that T needs to get there. The conclusion may be the same, but N reaches it through that gut feeling, or array of past experiences that tell you what the likely outcome will be. Hope this makes sense.