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  1. #101
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Well, when you make up the categories arbitrarily, there can be however many kinds of people you want in the world. When we ask, "How many kinds of people are there in the world?", we must choose some sort of criteria for distinguishing between different kinds.

    In one sense, there is only one kind of person in the world: the carbon-based kind. If we define the categories as "carbon-based" or "not carbon-based", everyone in the world will fall into the former category.

    Or, I could make up a system where everyone at least 5'6" tall is a K type, and everyone shorter than that is an R type. In terms of this system, there are only two kinds of people in the world.

    Jung/MBTI does the same thing; it just divides people up into sixteen categories instead of two. It takes the set of all human attitudes and then just cuts them up sixteen ways and assigns an arbitrary label to each one.

    So in terms of this particular arbitrarily made up labeling system, there are sixteen kinds of people.
    Yeah obviously, but the criteria of MBTI are not foolproof. We do still have free will, and choices we can make. Events in our lives that can shift us between the various behavioural patterns of MBTI. Showing different kinds of cognative function strengths in different situations. To the point that there's no single MBTI system that we fit in perfectly. But still there's always one we'll fit in more than others.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  2. #102
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Suppose reason says the outcome should be A. And that outcome hurts you, outcome B you imagine would be much better for your feelings. Still, you decide to go A, because reason tells you that is the best course of action.

    Would you regret your descision in the future or can you live with the hurt without regret?

    I think INTP's, though emotional beings just like the rest of them, are somewhat masochistic at times when it comes to these things (Well, it's not really masochism, but more like being a martyr). We generally don't regret getting hurt. We can live with pain if we believe it was the best course of action. Our 'belief' of reason can transcend our own emotions. (I say belief instead of logic, due to obvious subjective nature of reason in and off itself)

    We're extremists, bwaha. So ironic.
    i like your way of thinking/ putting things into words. i understand it. i'm very good at dealing with pain. (physical and emotional)... i'm all for honesty. i don't want to lie to myself (or have people lying to me) for the fear of getting hurt, because i'm not really afraid of getting hurt... it's like... there's nothing they could say that i haven't already thought about myself... and the only decisions i have regretted in my life have been the ones where i have let my feelings get the best of me. i'm concerned for other people's feelings, though. i don't want to hurt people and i don't want to see people hurt.

    i always thought that a few kind words and a hug and some reassurance/ advice... and my presence would be enough to help, but i've found that it isn't the case with all people. to me that's enough. to me it's enough that someone says sincerily, hey, it's ok, see the bright side... because i already know that (and i already know that i'm not being sensible), but i really appreciate it, if someone acknowledges that i feel, too.

    i'm very much for kindness. i try to treat people with respect, even though i might think they're not being sensible at all... because sometimes i'm not being sensible. i've been hurt. i know how it feels to be alone, but i'm not afraid of those feelings. they're like my old friends.

  3. #103
    Senior Member Cybin's Avatar
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    Suppose reason says the outcome should be A. And that outcome hurts you, outcome B you imagine would be much better for your feelings. Still, you decide to go A, because reason tells you that is the best course of action.
    Your post could apply to anyone, and definately isn't Ti specific.

    The misconception with Fi is that it is always concerned with a avoiding hurt. What this misses, however, that what feels right isn't always what avoids pain for itself. Maybe immature Fi types can give that impression.

    The difference is, many times the impersonal (as in, relating to people and not catering to the self) will feel like the worse corse of action wheras with INTPs, the impersonal will probably seem like the best.

    A better illustration, imo, is to think of an INFP and INTP in a managerial type position. An INFP with Fi making a personal decision will improve working conditions because how their workers feel is important, and you want to keep everyone pleased with their environment. An INTP with Ti making an impersonal decision will improve working conditions because higher morale means higher productivity (Ti-Fe working together to analyze personal interaction).

    Also, don't discount the INFP that values objectivity, which I believe you fall into Yvonne.

  4. #104
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    yeah. i suppose i just monitor my feelings all the time. i don't want them to come interfere too much, because i've made mistakes like that in the past. i know they are there and i let them be.

  5. #105
    Senior Member Cybin's Avatar
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    Just don't confuse feeling with emotion. Feeling is a rational process, emotion is a physical response.

    I know I get myself into trouble acting on emotion, and I try to understand them rather than go with them. Understanding why I have an emotional response helps understand my feelings and hopefully stops me from acting before thinking.

  6. #106
    :) INFtha14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Suppose reason says the outcome should be A. And that outcome hurts you, outcome B you imagine would be much better for your feelings. Still, you decide to go A, because reason tells you that is the best course of action.
    Hope you don't mind me quoting you Fluffywolf.
    Gave me a good idea of how I could present a contrast between
    the INFP and INTP.

    Well here it shows how you make a decision for the best course of action via reason.

    I'm going to use a real life decision I had to make. *how I was going to greive over someone close that passed*

    For me as an INFP I've looked at things in the sense of what would be better for self growth/honoring like Outcome A says avoid the pain and never understand the reasons behind why it happened so thus spend my whole life searching for answers but not in a healthy manor via unhealthy relationships/attachments/ bad decisions cause the underlying reason is not understood.

    Outcome B tells me to go through the pain no matter how much it causes me sleepless nights/fear/anxiety etc. Cause in the end at least I'll have confronted my demons and won't be looking for the answers where they won't be. I search for the truth as to be self honoring to heal.

    I chose Outcome B cause Outcome A sounded horrible to put myself through that over ocA. So pretty much told myself " if the pain/internal harmony goes unresolved then it will show up in any bad decisions/attachements later on."

    Sound like following Reason or following internal harmony first?

    Hope this provides a way to see how their different .
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  7. #107
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybin View Post
    Your post could apply to anyone, and definately isn't Ti specific.

    The misconception with Fi is that it is always concerned with a avoiding hurt. What this misses, however, that what feels right isn't always what avoids pain for itself. Maybe immature Fi types can give that impression.

    The difference is, many times the impersonal (as in, relating to people and not catering to the self) will feel like the worse corse of action wheras with INTPs, the impersonal will probably seem like the best.

    A better illustration, imo, is to think of an INFP and INTP in a managerial type position. An INFP with Fi making a personal decision will improve working conditions because how their workers feel is important, and you want to keep everyone pleased with their environment. An INTP with Ti making an impersonal decision will improve working conditions because higher morale means higher productivity (Ti-Fe working together to analyze personal interaction).

    Also, don't discount the INFP that values objectivity, which I believe you fall into Yvonne.
    A good post, although I feel that in this hypothetical situation of a managerial position, my thinking would be less about how other people feel than MY feeling of what is ethical; in this situation, it's a "treat people how I want to be treated" feeling being applied less than wanting to please others. It is ethical to make working conditions of people positive, and this is further supported as correct by the proven fact that good morale usually increases productivity (Fi-Te, ethical based viewpoint, using external measures to support the feeling). Even if my employees were okay with being treated like crap & were working hard & well, I would still feel bad because it is wrong for me to condone those conditions.

    To add to the main point of your post though, I want to emphasize that an INFP can have conflict between values and desires, or rational conclusions vs. emotion. A Fi-dom can and will go with what they feel is right over what they want. That means they may feel badly from an emotional standpoint, but know that a decision is the reasonable course. This is partly why INFPs are often said to have "internal conflict". There is not only a harmonizing of internal feelings happening, but one of feelings and emotion, as they can be at odds.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #108
    Senior Member Cybin's Avatar
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    A good post, although I feel that in this hypothetical situation of a managerial position, my thinking would be less about how other people feel than MY feeling of what is ethical; in this situation, it's a "treat people how I want to be treated" feeling being applied less than wanting to please others. It is ethical to make working conditions of people positive, and this is further supported as correct by the proven fact that good morale usually increases productivity (Fi-Te, ethical based viewpoint, using external measures to support the feeling). Even if my employees were okay with being treated like crap & were working hard & well, I would still feel bad because it is wrong for me to condone those conditions.
    I was just trying to find an extreme divide between a personal/impersonal decision. Or rather, focusing on internal vs external. But yes, I agree with this completely. Thanks.

  9. #109
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Even if my employees were okay with being treated like crap & were working hard & well, I would still feel bad because it is wrong for me to condone those conditions.
    how would it be wrong, if they didn't feel like they are treated like crap?

    it was interesting to make the divide between feeling and emotion... i'm not quite sure if i understand it? i've always thought those are synonyms, or that emotion is just heightened feeling?

  10. #110
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Yeah obviously, but the criteria of MBTI are not foolproof. We do still have free will, and choices we can make. Events in our lives that can shift us between the various behavioural patterns of MBTI. Showing different kinds of cognative function strengths in different situations. To the point that there's no single MBTI system that we fit in perfectly. But still there's always one we'll fit in more than others.
    Right, but MBTI doesn't really claim that you can't use different cognitive functions in different situations. The criteria refer to preferences, not absolute unconditional use of any particular function.

    That's what I mean when I say they're designed to cover everyone. An ENFJ isn't defined as someone who always uses Fe; it's someone whose strongest and most valued perspective is Fe, but who also uses the other perspectives in varying smaller degrees.

    So if your most valued perspective is Fe, and you prefer Ni to Si, then you do fit perfectly into the ENFJ mold. "Fitting perfectly" doesn't mean "always using the dominant function and never any others." The categories are designed that way.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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