[ENFP] xNFP and selfishness?

[Jaguar]

You're cute when you know you've been bested.

I must have missed that auspicious occasion.

 

[onemoretime]

I must have missed that auspicious occasion.

Considering everything else you miss, I'm not surprised.

 

[simulatedworld]

It's a little late for that, don't you think?

And as far as me getting more disciplinary action for what I say?
Sim, I have been rewarded again and again IRL for what I am "punished" for online.
I'm not going to change what earned me respect and success in business.

Why is it a little late for that? I'm young. I have lots of time.

So you're saying that being abrasive in real life is something I should strive for? That it's worked for you?

This sounds to me like a clash between Fi and Fe value systems. You're declaring that changing my interpersonal behavior according to the conditions I'm in necessitates a lack of integrity, which sounds like an Fi-oriented indictment of Fe.

Being different from you doesn't necessarily equate with lacking integrity.

 

[Jaguar]

Why is it a little late for that? I'm young. I have lots of time.

What I meant was, it's a little late since you publicly announced to everyone how you view people in this forum.
You revealed your true intentions way back in the old Fi thread.
The way you made it sound was like people here are lab rats to you, being used for an experiment.

So you're saying that being abrasive in real life is something I should strive for? That it's worked for you?

Did it ever occur to you that it's only perceived as "abrasive" online?
Sim, the same day I got an infraction last year, I used the exact same comment at the grocery store.
Everyone in line burst out laughing, but online I got an infraction.
Don't you find that a little odd?

So what could be the problem? Easy.
Facial expressions, the eyes, voice, body language.
It's all missing online.

One of the nicknames given to me over the years was, "funster."
Does that sound like I come across to people as "abrasive?"
95% of the time I have a big smile on my face.

What about people calling you "condescending" all the time?
And how about that old profile pic you once had with the snarling look on your face?
You sure didn't look like a "funster" to me.

 

[simulatedworld]

What I meant was, it's a little late since you publicly announced to everyone how you view people in this forum.
You revealed your true intentions way back in the old Fi thread.
The way you made it sound was like people here are lab rats to you, being used for an experiment.

Did it ever occur to you that it's only perceived as "abrasive" online?
Sim, the same day I got an infraction last year, I used the exact same comment at the grocery store.
Everyone in line burst out laughing, but online I got an infraction.
Don't you find that a little odd?

So what could be the problem? Easy.
Facial expressions, the eyes, voice, body language.
It's all missing online.

One of the nicknames given to me over the years was, "funster."
Does that sound like I come across to people as "abrasive?"
95% of the time I have a big smile on my face.

What about people calling you "condescending" all the time?
And how about that old profile pic you once had with the snarling look on your face?
You sure didn't look like a "funster" to me.

Good point. Did it occur to you that something similar be might true of me in real life?

 

[Jaguar]

Good point. Did it occur to you that something similar be might true of me in real life?

When someone chooses to post a snarling profile pic, that tells me something about how you wanted to be perceived.
The fact that you changed it, doesn't mean the original image left my head.

It seems to me that you say things online, you do not say offline.
It appears you have some INFP pal who you can't be honest with.
So rather than take care of it IRL, you come online and fuck with all the INFPs to somehow vent your repressed anger at your friend.

It wouldn't be the first time someone did that in this forum.

 

[Thalassa]

So rather than take care of it IRL, you come online and fuck with all the INFPs to somehow vent your repressed anger at your friend.

It wouldn't be the first time someone did that in this forum.

+1

 

[simulatedworld]

When someone chooses to post a snarling profile pic, that tells me something about how you wanted to be perceived.
The fact that you changed it, doesn't mean the original image left my head.

I think I was just smirking in that picture. I think "snarling" is a little excessive, and besides--that photo was taken for a band photo shoot which was supposed to project a particular image. I used it here because I thought it looked good, not because I wanted to be perceived as snarling.

It seems to me that you say things online, you do not say offline.
It appears you have some INFP pal who you can't be honest with.
So rather than take care of it IRL, you come online and fuck with all the INFPs to somehow vent your repressed anger at your friend.

It wouldn't be the first time someone did that in this forum.

You know, I bet that does have something to do with it, but I think a lot of the INFPs here are more annoying than my friend, by a wide margin.

Anyway, yes, I do say some things here that I don't say offline. That's true of a lot of people--many come in complaining about spouses or employers or family members, voice their grievances and ask for advice on how to deal with it. That doesn't mean they all lack integrity. The point was that I don't usually come off as very abrasive offline.

If you're suggesting that no one would interpret anything you say here as abrasive in real life, I beg to differ. If you really behave just the same way in real life that you do here, you've probably made a lot of enemies as well as friends.

 

[PeaceBaby]

sim, remember that old Fi thread, I stuck with you even though I felt you were insulting and condescending, on a personal level. And we managed through that thread to establish a rapport, and I now enjoy that.

Why did I make that choice, to tough it out, to want to get to that place of communication with you? Because I think you're an intelligent and relentlessly inquisitive young man with potential that's sometimes masked behind that edgy and condescending-looking exterior. It causes people to both avoid you and dismiss you, and I see that as a waste.

That's why I do still find it hard to understand why you choose to alienate some people who could become your friends.

Does it matter to you now what I think of you, for example? Compared to our first interactions? Compared to your assumptions?

 

[simulatedworld]

sim, remember that old Fi thread, I stuck with you even though I felt you were insulting and condescending, on a personal level. And we managed through that thread to establish a rapport, and I now enjoy that.

Why did I make that choice, to tough it out, to want to get to that place of communication with you? Because I think you're an intelligent and relentlessly inquisitive young man with potential that's sometimes masked behind that edgy and condescending-looking exterior. It causes people to both avoid you and dismiss you, and I see that as a waste.

That's why I do still find it hard to understand why you choose to alienate some people who could become your friends.

I think you stuck it out because you knew I just like arguing and don't really hate people as much as it might seem like I do. You just listened to what I said instead of imagining your own meaning in it, and you knew it was often exaggerated and intentionally inflammatory, so you didn't take it that seriously.

Does it matter to you now what I think of you, for example? Compared to our first interactions? Compared to your assumptions?

A little more than it used to, sure. I'm not sure I understand the point here, though. Jaguar seems to be saying that he's exactly the same in real life as he is here, but that no one finds it abrasive at all. I find that hard to believe.

He's also saying that I lack integrity because I'm willing to speak more openly here about certain things than I am to the real life people they involve. I don't think that says much about integrity; there are definitely times when it's not wise or appropriate to say everything that comes to mind.

 

[Jaguar]

If you're suggesting that no one would interpret anything you say here as abrasive in real life, I beg to differ. If you really behave just the same way in real life that you do here, you've probably made a lot of enemies as well as friends.

Sure I've made a few enemies over the years.
Considering how I made them, I'm very proud.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I think you stuck it out because you knew I just like arguing and don't really hate people as much as it might seem like I do. You just listened to what I said instead of imagining your own meaning in it, and you knew it was often exaggerated and intentionally inflammatory, so you didn't take it that seriously.

Sure, and I can be pretty tenacious; even if offended I try to stick it out. Because when I said your comments didn't bother me, that wasn't 100% true ... it did hurt my feelings a bit when you basically called me a bitc* ...

You just made me want to try harder to find your truth. I don't think you hate people at all. And I see how you use this as an outlet for frustration. But other folks don't have the benefit of knowing that. And they won't stick around to figure it out.

A little more than it used to, sure. I'm not sure I understand the point here, though. Jaguar seems to be saying that he's exactly the same in real life as he is here, but that no one finds it abrasive at all. I find that hard to believe.

He's also saying that I lack integrity because I'm willing to speak more openly here about certain things than I am to the real life people they involve. I don't think that says much about integrity; there are definitely times when it's not wise or appropriate to say everything that comes to mind.

Edit: @purple: I will expand on that tomorrow. There's a difference between talking things out vs taking things out on others.

Edit: @bold: that's true.

There are word choices that reflect a position of integrity, and sometimes you can use words that cast a less than favorable light on you.

But I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know exactly what's been exchanged, but I will give it a go-over tomorrow if you want to dissect it.

I am happy to chat on this more but must head to bed.

 

[simulatedworld]

Sure I've made a few enemies over the years.
Considering how I made them, I'm very proud.

Doesn't this sound like an Fi value to you? I know Fe often seems fake and disingenuous to you, but it's not intended to be from the viewpoint of Fe users.

When I was younger I acted more similarly in real life to the way I do on the forum...and I was often interpreted as abrasive and disrespectful. I would freely call out anyone I thought was being illogical or unreasonable and eventually it damaged enough personal relationships that I had to change.

Learning to hold my tongue in real life even when I thought something was illogical was an important lesson for me, and I don't really understand how you can say that means I lack integrity. It's become genuinely important to me to respect the culture of the family and friend groups that I belong to, and it's working out much better for me than just bluntly telling off everyone I disagreed with.

Your criticisms here sound a lot like your typical criticisms of Fe, and I have a hard time taking those seriously.

Sure, and I can be pretty tenacious; even if offended I try to stick it out. Because when I said your comments didn't bother me, that wasn't 100% true ... it did hurt my feelings a bit when you basically called me a bitc* ...

You just made me want to try harder to find your truth. I don't think you hate people at all. And I see how you use this as an outlet for frustration. But other folks don't have the benefit of knowing that. And they won't stick around to figure it out.

You don't think I'm aware of this? I just don't consider it that big a deal. I'm not lacking in social contacts to the point that I really need to worry about it if some random person on the internet doesn't want to talk to me. You have to prove that your opinion is somehow meaningful to me before I'll take steps to positively impact it. If you'd rather just ignore me entirely, that's just fine.

There are word choices that reflect a position of integrity, and sometimes you can use words that cast a less than favorable light on you.

But I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know exactly what's been exchanged, but I will give it a go-over tomorrow if you want to dissect it.

I am happy to chat on this more but must head to bed.

I know that; I just find it difficult to take lessons in integrity seriously from someone whose reputation for abrasiveness here matches mine pound for pound (Jaguar, not you.)

As for others, I've managed to make some friends here, and I imagine if my choices of words bothered them that much they'd already have started ignoring me entirely.

 

[PeaceBaby]

You don't think I'm aware of this? I just don't consider it that big a deal.

I know; we differ this way. I hear you and will give it some reflection and respond in the morning.

Also, I had an edit above; will expand on that too. The whole question of integrity is an interesting one in this context.

 

[Jaguar]

Learning to hold my tongue in real life even when I thought something was illogical was an important lesson for me, and I don't really understand how you can say that means I lack integrity. It's become genuinely important to me to respect the culture of the family and friend groups that I belong to, and it's working out much better for me than just bluntly telling off everyone I disagreed with.

Your criticisms here sound a lot like your typical criticisms of Fe, and I have a hard time taking those seriously.

You have made assumptions about why I think you lack integrity.
It's has nothing to do with "holding your tongue."

It has to do with your inconsistency, as well as your lab rat approach toward people here.
You also say shit that you don't even really mean, just to argue.
And you call that integrity?

It's that inconsistency which leads people to form an opinion of you that is less than trustworthy and not exactly brimming with integrity.
How many faces does Sim have? 5, 10, 15?

Not a glowing testimonial.

 

[simulatedworld]

You have made assumptions about why I think you lack integrity.
It's has nothing to do with "holding your tongue."

It has to do with your inconsistency, as well as your lab rat approach toward people here.
You also say shit that you don't even really mean, just to argue.
And you call that integrity?

So you're suggesting that it's acceptable to be abrasive and offensive as long as you believe everything you're saying? Why is it ok for you to attack people, but not for me? Regardless of whether you really believe what you're saying, the effect on others is the same.

And I do believe the underlying point of what I'm saying most of the time. It just gets exaggerated for effect.

It's that inconsistency which leads people to form an opinion of you that is less than trustworthy and not exactly brimming with integrity.
How many faces does Sim have? 5, 10, 15?

Not a glowing testimonial.

So it comes down to the fact that I'm willing to argue positions I don't support for sport? That's the reason I lack integrity?

 

[Edgar]

That's most certainly true, but it's not a question of guts. It's a question of caring more about preserving relationships with people in real life.




Not coincidentally, we get along much better with the FJs and they tend to appreciate our sense of humor/pick up on the fact that we're joking 20x more than you do. We don't seem nearly as serious, especially to the NFJs, because they're way better at reading us than you are. Personally, I have a lot of trouble reading NTJs.

It's a Ti/Fe vs. Fi/Te communication gap. NTPs are not any more objectively obnoxious than NTJs; you just understand the NTJ sense of humor better because you share their judging functions. End of story.

Hmm.. I think I could accept the general concept of "humor understanding/misunderstanding between types", but I do not agree with your breakdowns... well from personal experience anyway.

INFPs get butthurt with my jokes from time to time, but I can't remember a single incident involving an ISFP.
When it comes to ISFJs, I don't even have to crack a joke... my "poorly timed" laughter alone is sufficiently offensive.
Also, strangely enough, ENFJs that I've known shared a uniquely "socially demented" type of humor... but eventually we grow to despise each other based on other things (i.e. ENFJ: "Why don't you want to be part of my flock?" Me: "Fuck your flock")

 

[Jaguar]

So you're suggesting that it's acceptable to be abrasive and offensive as long as you believe everything you're saying? Why is it ok for you to attack people, but not for me?

Who am I "attacking?" Or is it that you are too blind to see my true intent?
I assure you, there are people here who have figured me out on their own.
You are not one of them.

And I do believe the underlying point of what I'm saying most of the time. It just gets exaggerated for effect.

Oh, I see. Like your abortion avatar? "Adorable."

So it comes down to the fact that I'm willing to argue positions I don't support for sport? That's the reason I lack integrity?

I tell ya' what. I'll make a list.

 

[simulatedworld]

Who am I "attacking?" Or is it that you are too blind to see my true intent?
I assure you, there are people here who have figured me out on their own.
You are not one of them.

Like the people you got graveyarded for trolling and insulting? Are you really trying to argue that you are not routinely abrasive on the forum? How many people do you think perceive you that way?

Oh, I see. Like your abortion avatar? "Adorable."

There's not even a serious position expressed by that avatar. It's just a pun.

I tell ya' what. I'll make a list.

Great, let's hear it.

 

[Thalassa]

The irony of Simulated World and Jaguar arguing yet again about absolutely nothing in a thread makes me suspect this is some kind of weird public foreplay.