[ENFP] xNFP and selfishness?

[onemoretime]

I'm fairly sure that your imagination is capable of coming up with better defenses than obstinacy or attack. For someone professing a deep understanding of Fe, I am not seeing evidence of said understanding.



And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

You're trying to argue that Fe is the law. Fe is only a small piece of the much larger set of possible social interactions. Heck, it's at best a hypothetical psychological function that seems to help describe some people. There are plenty of social interactions that do not invoke Fe. Granted, handling the subtleties of such interactions is often (but not always) a strength of those with a preference for Fe.

Anything deserving the name appellation "the law" was created by many humans of many opinions with many different motivations and goals. Fe doesn't even deserve the name "social contract." It's a psychological function, not the grand unified theory of human interaction.

Take off your blinders and look around, man. The answer's right in front of your face, stop acting like it isn't there.

 

[sculpting]

you know I think there are really good points scattered throughout this thread.

keep in mind Fi is energy intensive thus you cant use it on everyone. I am selfish about who I show love to. Which means most everyone else gets Te. Between two Te users, Te actually just feels practical but I think Te used at large can overun all of the Fe social boundaries out of blindness. It can feel very direct, blunt, rude, but is energy efficient.

We also dont inherently speak Fe so will fuck up all the beautiful social rules even when we purposefully try to follow them. Te doms and auxs-never see those social rules.

Recognize oh mighty Te doms and auxs-you are missing information. (It's okay they cant see our unspoken Fi either) For the Fe users, the Fe team is essential thus it deserves understanding and respect. The Fe users feel a sense of devotion and service to the society they serve and even the extps as they age, will become obligated by those Fe bonds, to care for and provide for the others that make up their community. There are a lot of unspoken delicate things that transpire in the Fe social communications, that indicate respect and the recognition of authority via giving it to another. It really is beautiful and caring.

Te does the same thing wrt to social responsibility-it is just more knee jerk epathic maybe, than based upon social roles and respect? It derives from "white knighting" of the Fi population. It is an knee jerk empathic response to "save" ie provide for the Fi users. Same type of social ties, social obligations, slowly grown into the Te doms and auxs, that happen with the EXTPs-but just a massively different communication system. It appears more one-on-one that the Fe reciprocal social networks but it is kinda the same idea.

So i had this idea though.

Assuming an Fe/Ti dominated group was hunting party in nature. The Ti doms and auxs hunt then share with the Fe social clan which must share space with out being directly dominating and share food in a subtle yet well understood social manner, that bonds but does not allow overt aggression. Also if you cant hold your own due to injury or illness you will slow the entire group down, thus overt Fi empathy has to be minimized.

Assume an Fi/Te dominated group is more agriculture based. It is stable, not moving, needs a high level of organization, a direct chain of command, Te power structure. There is an enhanced ability of the group to support the very weak members thus overt Fi empathy can play a larger role here and in directing suffering back to the somewhat emo-tarded Te doms and Auxs who head up the society.

blah blah blah balh and so on.

But I wonder-since all 8 functions are theoretically accessible-as we transition a group from a hunter tribe model to an settled farm model or the reverse, would you see population distributions of MBTI types change. Would it be genetic-ie certain types would be more likely to survive-or would it be cultural-certain functions would become selected for or perhaps enhanced via epigenetic means?

I dunno, I gotta go finish my beer.... (Only Fe chicks drink see through beers...)

 

[Kalach]

Take off your blinders and look around, man. The answer's right in front of your face, stop acting like it isn't there.

Or what--get ostracized? And have only half the world population to keep me company?

When will the subjective truth people realise that objective relationships exist for you to not go completely nuts? They're your anchor. And as such entail priorities that do not match, indeed will destabilise persons who use other kinds of anchors.

YOU need it. And you need other people to need it. Because you need it.

But you don't need it to the exclusion of all other things, which is lucky, and normal, because you--and everyone else--has other, competing priorities, both intra and inter personal.

Yay for us. We're all fucking normal.

 

[Thalassa]

At least I admit there are things about Fi that I don't understand. You seem dogmatically convinced that Ti is just factually wrong, end of story.

I don't know where you get this at all. I get along quite well with ISTPs, and one of the smartest people I know is probably an INTP.

Isn't the whole point of typology to facilitate better communication via learning about perspectives that don't naturally make sense to you? That doesn't really work if you just label all of those opposing perspectives "shitty behavior" and condemn the people who are actually trying to improve relationships.

I don't condemn anyone who is *actually* trying to improve relationships.

 

[simulatedworld]

I don't know where you get this at all. I get along quite well with ISTPs, and one of the smartest people I know is probably an INTP.

You said that Amargith's attempts at mediating simply promote shitty behavior. This implies that giving any credence to the perspectives that oppose yours is a mistake and that she shouldn't be encouraging it.

I don't condemn anyone who is *actually* trying to improve relationships.

You don't think that's what Amargith is doing?

 

[Thalassa]

You said that Amargith's attempts at mediating simply promote shitty behavior. This implies that giving any credence to the perspectives that oppose yours is a mistake and that she shouldn't be encouraging it.

I think that insulting people, attacking people, and pulling rank is shitty behavior - unless it's funny or deserved. ENTPs frequently attack, insult, and pull rank with people but expect to welcomed with open arms. I don't play that game. I have specific examples if you wish for me to give you them in a PM.

You don't think that's what Amargith is doing?

I never condemned Amar.

I was talking about you and OMT.

 

[onemoretime]

I was talking about you and OMT.

Nice assumptions, considering you've got me on ignore.

 

[simulatedworld]

I think that insulting people, attacking people, and pulling rank is shitty behavior - unless it's funny or deserved. ENTPs frequently attack, insult, and pull rank with people but expect to welcomed with open arms. I don't play that game. I have specific examples if you wish for me to give you them in a PM.

"Funny" and "deserved" are rather up to interpretation, are they not?

I never condemned Amar.

I was talking about you and OMT.

I mentioned that she was trying to mediate and you said that such behavior was masochistic and condones shitty behavior. I don't think trying to mediate condones shitty behavior, does it?

 

[onemoretime]

"Funny" and "deserved" are rather up to interpretation, are they not?

BTW, what does "pulling rank" in this context even mean in the first place? Last time I checked, there isn't any sort of hierarchy on here...

 

[Amargith]

Can you three get a room and leave me out of this please?

I don't particularly take kindly to people who start dissecting whether my behavior was or was not appropriate and I can see where this convo is going...

 

[onemoretime]

Can you three get a room and leave me out of this please?

I don't particularly take kindly to people who start dissecting whether my behavior was or was not appropriate and I can see where this convo is going...

You're fine. We're not talking about anything you've done - it's appreciated. Marm's just trying to reframe the argument into us bullying you, because as far as she's concerned, we're EEEEEEEEEEEEVIL. Even though we've been over this a million times, that point-counterpoint is just how we learn things.

 

[Thalassa]

"Funny" and "deserved" are rather up to interpretation, are they not?

True, and the thing is, I have a pretty twisted sense of humor. Some of my favorite people on this site are meanly funny. I even find you and Qre:us funny sometimes, yet at other times feel backed into a corner by irrational tertiary Fe. I've even had INFJs confirm that ENTPs will do this - back people into corners. It's very nasty, and it's almost like bullying. The reason why I don't have this response to NTJs is because they don't seem to relish cornering people who are crying. Maybe there's something about Ni in general that backs off, and something about Ne in general that keeps going, which maybe why ENTPs and NFPs bug each other ... it's not just the Ti/Fi thing to blame.

I mentioned that she was trying to mediate and you said that such behavior was masochistic and condones shitty behavior. I don't think trying to mediate condones shitty behavior, does it?

That is my personal opinion and my reasoning for why I don't do likewise. However, others can do as they please, I don't condemn people for trying to make peace, even if I disagree with what's happening.

Amargith may have completely different motives than I perceived, and I am not going to sit here and dissect her because I like and respect her ... and frankly, I don't really care to, anyway.

 

[sculpting]

<DELETED - Needless tension in this language, let there be peace again, thank you. -Halla>

We wub you halla, oh beautiful peacemaker!! (I wub Marm too.)

True, and the thing is, I have a pretty twisted sense of humor. Some of my favorite people on this site are meanly funny. I even find you and Qre:us funny sometimes, yet at other times feel backed into a corner by irrational tertiary Fe. I've even had INFJs confirm that ENTPs will do this - back people into corners. It's very nasty, and it's almost like bullying. The reason why I don't have this response to NTJs is because they don't seem to relish cornering people who are crying. Maybe there's something about Ni in general that backs off, and something about Ne in general that keeps going, which maybe why ENTPs and NFPs bug each other ... it's not just the Ti/Fi thing to blame.

Just wrt the ENTPs

I'd make a guess and say this isnt Fe-the backing in a corner. They are debating about Fe, but they are using NeTi in a highly aggressive manner-that's the point-counterpoint you are seeing.

This can be really fun IRL if on an issue you are not emotionally invested in, but in text comes across exceptionally harsh. It even stings me, so I have to take a minute sometimes and replay the text in my mind as though it came from my ENTP to find the right verbal tone. Even then her and I have had a few highly emotive displays regarding jungian functions. (The parallels in those convos are amazingly similar to the convos that happen here-the topics)

When an ENTP uses Fe I see two things happen-

1.they will actually not reply to your posts. You kinda get shunned, albeit I cannot speak for the internal feelings/motivations that are ascribed to this behavior. I think they observe I am combative and thus they will refrain from interacting-it really does disturb them???

2. They play a cute cat and mouse game to lure you into a trap then spring it on you. This seems to be Fe being used in the service of NeTi perhaps?? Never piss off an ENTP in real life. They are the tops at this game.

 

[BlackCat]

True, and the thing is, I have a pretty twisted sense of humor. Some of my favorite people on this site are meanly funny. I even find you and Qre:us funny sometimes, yet at other times feel backed into a corner by irrational tertiary Fe. I've even had INFJs confirm that ENTPs will do this - back people into corners. It's very nasty, and it's almost like bullying. The reason why I don't have this response to NTJs is because they don't seem to relish cornering people who are crying. Maybe there's something about Ni in general that backs off, and something about Ne in general that keeps going, which maybe why ENTPs and NFPs bug each other ... it's not just the Ti/Fi thing to blame.

This is the internet, and they probably just think it's funny to troll you and don't take this seriously at all. ENTPs don't really do that in the real world... if they cared about you I really can't see why that would happen. The only time that I've really been cornered by anyone in real life is in an impersonal debate... and nothing really personal. That's not really much of an offense, just the way a debate goes.

It's kind of sad that people take these ENTP-NFP relations that happen on the internet seriously, because it just doesn't seem to be like this at all in reality.

And you have to understand that some other people view that as being masochistic and enabling shitty behavior.

Heh, well what people need to understand is that it would be masochistic for a 9 to allow a conflict to happen. Since that would be true psychological pain for us to not do anything about it.

 

[simulatedworld]

This is the internet, and they probably just think it's funny to troll you and don't take this seriously at all. ENTPs don't really do that in the real world... if they cared about you I really can't see why that would happen. The only time that I've really been cornered by anyone in real life is in an impersonal debate... and nothing really personal. That's not really much of an offense, just the way a debate goes.

It's kind of sad that people take these ENTP-NFP relations that happen on the internet seriously, because it just doesn't seem to be like this at all in reality.

+1

 

[Amargith]

This is the internet, and they probably just think it's funny to troll you and don't take this seriously at all. ENTPs don't really do that in the real world... if they cared about you I really can't see why that would happen. The only time that I've really been cornered by anyone in real life is in an impersonal debate... and nothing really personal. That's not really much of an offense, just the way a debate goes.

It's kind of sad that people take these ENTP-NFP relations that happen on the internet seriously, because it just doesn't seem to be like this at all in reality.


Heh, well what people need to understand is that it would be masochistic for a 9 to allow a conflict to happen. Since that would be true psychological pain
for us to not do anything about it.

Dude, don't tell me you believe me to be a 9 as well now :steam:

 

[onemoretime]

This is the internet, and they probably just think it's funny to troll you and don't take this seriously at all. ENTPs don't really do that in the real world... if they cared about you I really can't see why that would happen. The only time that I've really been cornered by anyone in real life is in an impersonal debate... and nothing really personal. That's not really much of an offense, just the way a debate goes.

It's kind of sad that people take these ENTP-NFP relations that happen on the internet seriously, because it just doesn't seem to be like this at all in reality.

It really has less to do with the other person, and more to do with staking out a position and exploring all the surrounding angles.

 

[Poki]

I take out a gun and blow his head off. Oops. But, I shouldn't go to prison, because we didn't have a social contract between us that says "thou shalt not shoot the other person in the head".

It's unworkable.

FAIL.....Your attempted Ni is kinda sad. Whats the context. Real men shouldnt wear pink, its a social rule and he was wearing pink. Yes im being arrogant and obnoxious, yes I am willing to admit to it, but you know what? Either way the truth hurts:yim_rolling_on_the_

Im just looking for my in. ENTPs are as fun for ISTPs to play with as ENFPs are for ENTPs to play with. NFPs can play with me like no tomorrow though

edit: its like the circle of life

 

[Jaguar]

Real men shouldnt wear pink, its a social rule and he was wearing pink.

Correction - men susceptible to peer pressure don't wear pink.
Men who aren't susceptible, wear whatever the hell they want. :hi:

 

[Amargith]

FAIL.....Your attempted Ni is kinda sad. Whats the context. Real men shouldnt wear pink, its a social rule and he was wearing pink. Yes im being arrogant and obnoxious, yes I am willing to admit to it, but you know what? Either way the truth hurts:yim_rolling_on_the_

Im just looking for my in. ENTPs are as fun for ISTPs to play with as ENFPs are for ENTPs to play with. NFPs can play with me like no tomorrow though

edit: its like the circle of life

Playing with you is a true joy, at least, as long as you enjoy it too