User Tag List

First 67891018 Last

Results 71 to 80 of 273

  1. #71
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,660

    Default

    ^^Odd...the thing is, the reason i'd react that way is *becoz* I respect you. I don't adhere to social rules. Hell, I'm not even aware of them. But for you, because it upsets you, I will gladly keep it in mind when I'm around you
    It's not placating or disrespecting, in fact, it's respecting you very much as I'm willing to keep something in mind that normally I wouldn't think twice about, when you're around

    I don't consider what I did wrong. Personally, if someone wakes me up in the middle of the night, I just go back to sleep UNLESS it kept going on forever (I'm talking 20 min or more here), and it was *every* night and it seriously disrupted my sleep. I won't even mention it to them if it's just that once...they clearly aren't doing it to aggrevate me, and they're having fun..why would I make a big deal out of things then?

    Also, the sarcasm and laughing thing..only a good idea if we really really know you well and if you can make the amused tone of voice sound throug hit all, otherwise, you're bound to get a porcupine response. If I myself was bothered by someone in that situation, unless they were really loud and thoughtless about it (then I'll just genuinly get pissed and yell at them), going on forever etc, I would just ask the next day: hey, I heard you come in, can you next time try to keep it down a little, coz I could hear it in my room. Seems that noise echoes quite a lot in the house. Tnx

    I don't assume it's already a given that you do that..afterall, how is someone to realize how loud they're being when they're having fun and when they have no clue as to how much the noise travels in the house? I dunno..it seems like such a futile thing to make a big deal out of.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  2. #72
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5&4 sx
    Socionics
    INFj
    Posts
    1,232

    Default

    In the other person's perspective, it's hypocritical of you to complain about making noise, since you never even expressed a personal sentiment that it was wrong in the first place.


    That's such a weak argument considering that it's counter to typical human behavior.

    It's common knowledge [within our society] that making a truckload of noise while someone is sleeping is inconsiderate. It's why in the dialogue when the TP makes noise that wakes the Fi-user up the Fi-user doesn't blow up on him. We would assume, unless you've given us reason to believe otherwise, that you weren't at the moment mindful, or even knowledgable, that we were sleeping as we weren't momentarily mindful or knowledgable of your sleeping the night before (why would we knowingly make noise if we know you're asleep?).

    True, sometimes Fi-users explode on others when they feel someone stepped on one of their values, but that's usually because we've either made it explicitly clear to you that you've offended us with some of the same behavior you've displayed before, or we wrongly assumed you could pick up on nonverbal communication that something you did was offensive because it made us visibly uncomfortable. For a rare case, the Fi-user may explode on you when they don't understand that their values aren't everyone's values (typical of someone whose young) or when they've become cynical or pessimistic from hurt and are apathetic of other people's feelings (typical of someone whose unhealthy - let me reiterate the average NFP is not unhealthy).


    I know I've analysized that hypothetical situation to the edge of its validity, but I work better with examples of that nature.

    In essence, you're just complaining to get back for earlier, since you never expressed a sense of making noise at night being a bad thing.
    Or perhaps you're wrong and they're not trying to be spiteful. Perhaps the person actually was bothered by the noise, and you're just being unnecessarily suspicious of the other person's intentions and assuming because you'd do something as petty as try to "get back at someone" about something ridiculous as how much noise is being made that the other person would do it, too, when that's not correct.

    We don't know your personal values. You've got to show them so we can establish an understanding between us.
    Some things are just understood. We may be Fi users, but many of us understand Fe's social rules and consideration.

    A big part of that is contrition and admitting fault.
    Admitting fault? You mean saying whose right and whose wrong in the situation when that's beside the point? Why turn something that into a competition? That seems to be based more on pride and principle than on finding harmony or some common ground.


    And for the record, "Okay. I'll be more mindful" is an implied apology.

  3. #73
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    [I see what you did there ]

    Definitely sounds like the typical reasoning. It seems a little absurd to me. playing by rules, having to admit fault, getting back...it's a frighteningly literal and self-preservational use of Fe without any form of empathy. Being quiet at night is hardly a personal value, it's a general form of courtesy...I understand that that is how tertiary Fe users work, but if you need to be explicitely told things such as "being noisy at night is a bad thing" (now I realise where the FJ love comes from, though) you might want to learn how to navigate Fe better (Te for you). It rivals overemphasised Te in its blind roboticness.
    It's not about being noisy at night. It probably never was about the noise in the first place. He probably doesn't care about the physical act of being awakened. He does care about being disrespected.

    And why would he expect me to "admit fault" for some "personal rule" he hadn't explicitely informed me of before then? Seems a little odd.
    Because you respect him as a person, and admitting wrongdoing is a sign of respect for a person.

    And what happens when the ETP does something you've told him you don't appreciate before? I suppose that I communicate these things as "I want to read now, I don't appreciate you bugging me." rather than "I want you not to bug me". FJs seem to be fine with that approach, but young ETPs really need it spelled out just right, it seems. Very exhausting. It's not the Fi way to go impose on other people how they should interact or feel. I can adapt my approach a little of course. But tertiary Fe out of control is beyond my abilities. IME, they can have a very tough time interpreting people because of the excessive focus on literal Fe and lack of empathy, leading to paranoia.
    Once again, validation and respect. "I want you not to bug me" is also saying "I don't care about your needs/desires". It's a very negative, rejecting statement. Saying something like "hey man, I'd really like to hang out, but I've got to read right now, sorry" indicates that you care about the other person, and respect him enough to consider his desires, even if your priorities take precedent.

    We have very strong emotions, which influence everything we do. In fact, that's why we often hide them, because without an emotional rock to anchor self-validation to, the pain of rejection is of such a level that I don't know if I can describe it to someone who hasn't felt it themselves. The panic it generates is akin to a fear of imminent death, because it involves the same sorts of neurological pathways. We've evolved to be social creatures, and our emotions are directly tied to this need. Love = safety and life, rejection = danger and death.

    The tertiary is a bitch!
    Something new to learn every day.

  4. #74
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I don't consider what I did wrong.
    That would be fine, if it were about waking the other person up. I know you to be a person who believes it's wrong to disrespect others. So in this circumstance, it's right to apologize for disrespecting the TP.

    Also, the sarcasm and laughing thing..only a good idea if we really really know you well and if you can make the amused tone of voice sound throug hit all, otherwise, you're bound to get a porcupine response. If I myself was bothered by someone in that situation, unless they were really loud and thoughtless about it (then I'll just genuinly get pissed and yell at them), going on forever etc, I would just ask the next day: hey, I heard you come in, can you next time try to keep it down a little, coz I could hear it in my room. Seems that noise echoes quite a lot in the house. Tnx
    Which is a perfectly good way to approach the situation, if you're the initial one to be wronged.

    I don't assume it's already a given that you do that..afterall, how is someone to realize how loud they're being when they're having fun and when they have no clue as to how much the noise travels in the house? I dunno..it seems like such a futile thing to make a big deal out of.
    But it's not about the thing itself - it's the disrespect toward the other person. I think you'd agree that this is worth making a big deal about.

  5. #75
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,660

    Default

    See but I already explained that in fact it's a sign of respect..and that in fact your 'sarcasm' is a huge sign of disrespect in my books..so how do you suggest solving that?
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  6. #76
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post


    That's such a weak argument considering that it's counter to typical human behavior.

    It's common knowledge [within our society] that making a truckload of noise while someone is sleeping is inconsiderate. It's why in the dialogue when the TP makes noise that wakes the Fi-user up the Fi-user doesn't blow up on him. We would assume, unless you've given us reason to believe otherwise, that you weren't at the moment mindful, or even knowledgable, that we were sleeping as we weren't momentarily mindful or knowledgable of your sleeping the night before (why would we knowingly make noise if we know you're asleep?).
    It's not about the noise. It's about the inconsideration.

    True, sometimes Fi-users explode on others when they feel someone stepped on one of their values, but that's usually because we've either made it explicitly clear to you that you've offended us with some of the same behavior you've displayed before, or we wrongly assumed you could pick up on nonverbal communication that something you did was offensive because it made us visibly uncomfortable. For a rare case, the Fi-user may explode on you when they don't understand that their values aren't everyone's values (typical of someone whose young) or when they've become cynical or pessimistic from hurt and are apathetic of other people's feelings (typical of someone whose unhealthy - let me reiterate the average NFP is not unhealthy).
    I don't see how this pertains to the discussion. Enlighten me?

    Or perhaps you're wrong and they're not trying to be spiteful. Perhaps the person actually was bothered by the noise, and you're just being unnecessarily suspicious of the other person's intentions and assuming because you'd do something as petty as try to "get back at someone" about something ridiculous as how much noise is being made that the other person would do it, too, when that's not correct.
    Here's the logic - you've disrespected me. You said nothing to indicate that you even care that you've disrespected me. So therefore, why do you demand that I act respectfully in turn, when you won't grant me the same level of consideration? You indicated that you didn't think waking someone up was a big deal... then you act like it was a big deal. There's a few ways of interpreting this - you're either acting selfishly in that what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander, you're acting childishly in not remembering the previous issue, or you're trying to mock me for having made the issue in the first place - which disrespects me even more.

    With Fe, if you don't mend the status of disrespect, you'll remain categorized as disrespectful, and the worst will be assumed of you. On the other hand, if you validate and respect the other person, there's practically no limit to the benefit of the doubt that's extended toward you.

    Some things are just understood. We may be Fi users, but many of us understand Fe's social rules and consideration.
    Think about offending an Fi value. That's what we feel when others act inconsiderately toward us. When a statement is made that's factually true, but offensive toward you, do you think it's right to be disregarded in that instance?

    We're framing this as an Fi/Fe issue, but it's really an Fe/Te issue.

    Admitting fault? You mean saying whose right and whose wrong in the situation when that's beside the point? Why turn something that into a competition? That seems to be based more on pride and principle than on finding harmony or some common ground.
    Lack of respect puts you in the "distrusted" category. People in that category are seen as potential threats. The competition is an attempt to neutralize that potential threat. Admitting fault and apologizing for the inconsideration is a sign of respect that puts you back into the "trusted" category, also known as "good graces".

    And for the record, "Okay. I'll be more mindful" is an implied apology.
    Implied apologies are piss-poor apologies, for the above reasons.

  7. #77
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    See but I already explained that in fact it's a sign of respect..and that in fact your 'sarcasm' is a huge sign of disrespect in my books..so how do you suggest solving that?
    "Hey, I'm sorry for waking you up last night, it was inconsiderate of me. I'll do my best to make sure it doesn't happen again. However, I really didn't appreciate it when you came in and barked at me the way you did. Next time I do something that bothers you, would you please just tell me calmly? I'd really appreciate it."

  8. #78
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,660

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    "Hey, I'm sorry for waking you up last night, it was inconsiderate of me. I'll do my best to make sure it doesn't happen again. However, I really didn't appreciate it when you came in and barked at me the way you did. Next time I do something that bothers you, would you please just tell me calmly? I'd really appreciate it."
    LOL. This is exactly what I do when I'm in a group. Coz yeah, it is the only way of keeping the peace...Fe. At least...if I'm not in a pissy mood after that first comment, or consider it smart to not let it get to me, coz it might be beneficial to keep the person as a friend.

    When it's someone I know well though, it is nice to just be able to drop those forced 'manners'
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  9. #79
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    nnnn
    Posts
    1,633

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It's not about being noisy at night. It probably never was about the noise in the first place. He probably doesn't care about the physical act of being awakened. He does care about being disrespected.
    You're missing what I'm saying here, namely that tert Fe is looking for trouble if it invests so much of itself in these stupid little things and refuses to look at it beyond literal and self-preservational Fe.

    Because you respect him as a person, and admitting wrongdoing is a sign of respect for a person.
    Same here, It does not add up with what you said before, namely that something needs to be expressed if it is to be complained about in a non-hypocritical manner. So if he follows that reasoning, then why does he expect me to apologise for something he hadn't expressed before?

    Also, admitting wrongdoing may be a sign of respect for someone, but not for everyone and definitely not to the same degree. ETPs seem to forget that.

    Once again, validation and respect. "I want you not to bug me" is also saying "I don't care about your needs/desires". It's a very negative, rejecting statement. Saying something like "hey man, I'd really like to hang out, but I've got to read right now, sorry" indicates that you care about the other person, and respect him enough to consider his desires, even if your priorities take precedent.
    Ah, I thought you advised the "I want you not to bug me" approach, my bad. And that's just sugar-coating. In the end you want to read now (what you want over his needs). There's no need to be rude about it and you can slap on some sugar, but you'll always have some priority conflicts unless you find someone that wants what you wants (or is capable of manipulating you to want what they want) all the time (sounds familiar, yeah?). It's not sustainable like that. The most selfish acts can be made while trying desperately not to be selfish. Similarly for Fi, the most horrific acts can be made while trying desperately not to be immoral.

    I'm under the impression that unhealthy (tert) Fe users expect everything to revolve around (them) getting validation and respect and really overdo it, driving many people away in the process. It also seems that their perception of themselves as goody-two-shoes trying to do best for everyone ("woe is me and other people are disappointing me all the time because they don't go with what I want") and the way they come across to other people (Fi and Fe users) is radically different. Selfless - selfish respectively. And I mean you've mostly been instructing me on how to handle ETPs to their benefit, not really discussing things or responding to critical remarks...

    We have very strong emotions, which influence everything we do. In fact, that's why we often hide them, because without an emotional rock to anchor self-validation to, the pain of rejection is of such a level that I don't know if I can describe it to someone who hasn't felt it themselves. The panic it generates is akin to a fear of imminent death, because it involves the same sorts of neurological pathways. We've evolved to be social creatures, and our emotions are directly tied to this need. Love = safety and life, rejection = danger and death.
    Rejection does suck and I think a lot of people feel your pain regardless of type, but then why not look at yourself a little instead of at what other people can do for you? Methinks you might enjoy embracing some Fi.

    With Fe, if you don't mend the status of disrespect, you'll remain categorized as disrespectful, and the worst will be assumed of you.
    Yes and it may lead to the aforementioned paranoia if you don't balance it out with logical reasoning.

    PS: speaking of practicing what you preach - how does your addressing me with the rather rude and perspectivally narrow "where you screwed up" fit into the Fe construct? (honest question)

  10. #80
    Senior Member Cybin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    105

    Default

    It would really baffle me if I offerred (and followed up) to be more mindful of someone's feelings and they considered that disrespectful because I didn't admit fault explicitly. I suppose Fi types are more comfortable with implicit statements in that regard. If I felt that I was at fault, I would probably say something along the lines of 'I'm sorry, I'll be more mindful in the future.' If I felt I wasn't I would say why 'The door creaks and there just nothing that can be done about it.' or what have you. Really though, the person at fault is only a side issue as long as the issue gets resolved. Someone can admit fault all they want, but the true measure of whether they understand and are sorry is what they do to keep it from happening the the future. No changing the past.

Similar Threads

  1. [JCF] XNFPs and Knowing the "Essence" of People
    By finalcount in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 07-30-2012, 10:36 AM
  2. [MBTItm] XNFPs and the Discussion of Events/Feelings
    By SubtleFighter in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 06-23-2011, 02:04 PM
  3. [MBTItm] The XNFP and restlessness.
    By CrystalViolet in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 04-06-2011, 09:06 PM
  4. Hate to do this guys but...types and selfishness
    By FalseHeartDothKnow in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 06-01-2010, 11:11 AM
  5. [Fi] Are Fi and selfishness related?
    By Lightyear in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 235
    Last Post: 07-16-2009, 05:51 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO