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  1. #61
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    :rolli: As far as I'm concerned, just the way in which that first sentence was stated already forfeits your right to an appology. That's just rude and guilttripping on its own. The fact that he's willing to adjust to the guy after he's been that rude, means he's already to be grateful, imo, that you're willing to overlook it and keep his comment in mind. If then he doesn't even bother to repay the courtesy, he can get an earfull. It's kinda natural to do onto others as you would have them do onto you. So if they agree to treat you in a certain way even if they don't see the big deal, at least show the same respect back. It's infuriating to have someone act that much like a jerk.
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  2. #62
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    In the other person's perspective, it's hypocritical of you to complain about making noise, since you never even expressed a personal sentiment that it was wrong in the first place.

    No one has to EXPRESS anything to you, in order for you to be a hypocrite.

  3. #63
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    :rolli: As far as I'm concerned, just the way in which that first sentence was stated already forfeits your right to an appology. That's just rude and guilttripping on its own. The fact that he's willing to adjust to the guy after he's been that rude, means he's already to be grateful, imo, that you're willing to overlook it and keep his comment in mind. If then he doesn't even bother to repay the courtesy, he can get an earfull. It's kinda natural to do onto others as you would have them do onto you. So if they agree to treat you in a certain way even if they don't see the big deal, at least show the same respect back. It's infuriating to have someone act that much like a jerk.
    It's also joking around. It's not supposed to be taken seriously. We're a bit over the top like that, as you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    No one has to EXPRESS anything to you, in order for you to be a hypocrite.
    The supposed hypocrisy was a reaction to the other person's perceived hypocrisy. No one's actually a hypocrite there. They're just seeing the encounter through very different lenses.

    But you knew that already, didn't you?

  4. #64
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    That would work great if most Fi-ers actually did give others the same space. I'm sure the healthy ones do, but the rest of them often resort to passive-aggressive guilt tripping while simultaneously insisting that they hate the idea of intruding on anyone else's space.
    You mean *your friend* resorts to passive-aggressive guilt tripping.

    I think I speak for most ENFPs when I say,

    1.) There's nothing more foul than being passive-aggressive, it's like being half pathetic and half evil which = being pathetic and evil = eww

    2.) There's nothing more pathetic than guilt-tripping, EWWW!!! If someone hurts your feelings or does something fucked up, respond appropriately, stick up for yourself, never sheepishly let them continue whatever it is that they're doing and try to hurt them by giving them a pouty guilt-trip, disgusting and pathetic.

    3.) The intrusion of space IS IN FACT A BIG We don't like it done to us, we won't do it to you. But things get blurred when we are *sharing an intimate space*, i.e. a place where we both willingly reside, so to speak, in this special space, when things get uncomfortable we might feel intruded upon, but that is just the manifestation of something, some issue that we don't want to address. Unless it is absolutely pertinent to address said issue, we, ENFPs will allow the person their time and space to address the issue themselves.
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    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

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  5. #65
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It's also joking around. It's not supposed to be taken seriously. We're a bit over the top like that, as you know.
    Crap, I did it again, didn't I...i think I did. No, I didn't refer to the first sentence of your post, but the way in which in the hypotetical example the TP made his irration known. The amount of rudeness and guilttripping displayed there already forfeits your right to any sympathy imo

    I appreciate you trying to explain how it works from the other side, but the thing is, communication comes from both ends. And to me, in the example given, the TJ acknowledged the wishes of the TP and applied them to keep a good bond going, so he assumed that this was the new rule from now on. When the TP then has no problem doing the same thing and when called on, doesn't reciprocate that gesture..that's infuriating. For real.
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  6. #66
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The supposed hypocrisy was a reaction to the other person's perceived hypocrisy. No one's actually a hypocrite there. They're just seeing the encounter through very different lenses.
    Anyone who bitches about a certain behavior and then does it themselves, is a hypocrite.

  7. #67
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    What I have found is if I take care of an Fi user they will take care of me with Fe. But it is never expected.

    No matter what I do an Fe user will take care of me and it is expected in return. Personally it is hard for me to bring in Fi.

    Its your call on which version is selfish. I see selfishness in both.
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #68
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Where you screwed up. You didn't admit any fault there. You didn't say "I messed up". So, in future contexts, since you're not playing by those rules, the xxTP doesn't think he or she has to play by those rules, either.

    In the other person's perspective, it's hypocritical of you to complain about making noise, since you never even expressed a personal sentiment that it was wrong in the first place. In essence, you're just complaining to get back for earlier, since you never expressed a sense of making noise at night being a bad thing.

    We don't know your personal values. You've got to show them so we can establish an understanding between us. A big part of that is contrition and admitting fault.
    [I see what you did there ]

    Definitely sounds like the typical reasoning. It seems a little absurd to me. playing by rules, having to admit fault, getting back...it's a frighteningly literal and self-preservational use of Fe without any form of empathy. Being quiet at night is hardly a personal value, it's a general form of courtesy...I understand that that is how tertiary Fe users work, but if you need to be explicitely told things such as "being noisy at night is a bad thing" (now I realise where the FJ love comes from, though) you might want to learn how to navigate Fe better (some Te for you). It rivals overemphasised Te in its blind roboticness.

    And why would he expect me to "admit fault" for some "personal rule" he hadn't explicitely informed me of before then? Seems a little odd.

    And what happens when the ETP does something you've told him you don't appreciate before? I suppose that I communicate these things as "I want to read now, I don't appreciate you bugging me." rather than "I want you not to bug me". FJs seem to be fine with that approach, but young ETPs really need it spelled out just right, it seems. Very exhausting. It's not the Fi way to go impose on other people how they should interact or feel. I can adapt my approach a little of course. But tertiary Fe out of control is beyond my abilities. IME, they can have a very tough time interpreting people because of the excessive focus on literal Fe and lack of empathy, leading to paranoia.

    The tertiary is a bitch!

  9. #69
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Crap, I did it again, didn't I...i think I did. No, I didn't refer to the first sentence of your post, but the way in which in the hypotetical example the TP made his irration known. The amount of rudeness and guilttripping displayed there already forfeits your right to any sympathy imo

    I appreciate you trying to explain how it works from the other side, but the thing is, communication comes from both ends. And to me, in the example given, the TJ acknowledged the wishes of the TP and applied them to keep a good bond going, so he assumed that this was the new rule from now on. When the TP then has no problem doing the same thing and when called on, doesn't reciprocate that gesture..that's infuriating. For real.
    I knew what you were saying, don't worry. What you see as rudeness and guilt tripping are likely sarcasm and playful humor in the other person's mind. Most of us know it's rude to act that way toward people you care about, and we think other people know the same thing... so we're using that as a source of humor. In that sense, we're actually trying to defuse the situation by being obviously unreasonably combative, as contradictory as that may seem.

    Saying "I'll be mindful in the future" doesn't give any indication that you think what you did was wrong. It sounds like you're only doing it to placate the other person. Rather than validate their feelings of annoyance by accepting wrongdoing, that phrasing makes it seem like the first person is trying to objectify what happened, and make it solely about a procedure to be fixed.

    This doesn't address the core issue - you disrespected the first person by being noisy. Saying "I'm sorry, I was wrong for doing that" also indicates you respect the other person, and acknowledge that you acted disrespectfully toward them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Anyone who bitches about a certain behavior and then does it themselves, is a hypocrite.
    Anyone who acts like they don't give a shit about the other person, and then acts indignant when the other person acts like they don't give a shit about the first person, is also a hypocrite.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    [I see what you did there ]

    Definitely sounds like the typical reasoning. It seems a little absurd to me. playing by rules, having to admit fault, getting back...it's a frighteningly literal and self-preservational use of Fe without any form of empathy. Being quiet at night is hardly a personal value, it's a general form of courtesy...

    The tertiary is a bitch!
    That pretty much defines Fe used as a defense mechanism.

    The tertiary form of a function is a bitch!
    Im out, its been fun

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