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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    i'm not so sure. perhaps the second had dialog with him more mono e mono. if the environment was comfortable for her, the E will come out more expressed
    I see your point, but the fact that he's an INFP himself and still feels like she keeps talking when he wants to (in fact, I'm actually wondering what exactly is keeping him from talking about himself and if she's really so self-absorbed that she talks over him he really needs to let her know) it makes me think that she's more extroverted than he is. I could be wrong.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Because "I'm not ever going to compromise my feelings" sometimes translates into "I should always get my way."

    I might be compelled to work with you in a job-related situation, for instance, where I'm under no obligation to develop a deep connection with you. Or I might be a family member with a familial obligation to interact with you that I didn't voluntarily choose.

    In these situations it seems to make more sense to go with some kind of general standard of behavior instead of always insisting on getting your way.
    I agree with you. I think someone who has Fi who can't EVER compromise or understand that compromise is an important part of relationships, or who NEVER questions their feelings is immature.

    I'm not sure why, though, you think only Fi-ers do this sort of thing. Other types can be very uncompromising in other ways. ENTPs, for example, on this site frequently try to "pull rank" and harrass others, but then they claim to have Fe values that have been stepped on if others are rude. It's kind of shocking and baffling. Same with any sort of TJ - they can bulldoze others with Te and be uncompromising about the right way to do things and be bossy. Fe can certainly bulldoze others, too, and be intrusive and lack boundaries with other people.

    I think it's nice that you admire FJs for being selfless - but they aren't ALWAYS selfless. It's like you're comparing best case scenario to worst case scenario. It also bears pointing out the fact that if you value selflessness so much you must be pretty damn selfish yourself if you are comforted by the idea of a partner catering to your whims with little regards to their own wants and needs.

  3. #53
    Senior Member mr.awesome's Avatar
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    alright to expand this conversation...
    just to add on, as i began to wonder whether its better to just go with the flow of just listening to their views.., or to contribute with your own personal views without being asked them.. as i always ask them things. i seem to be the asker in the relationships, but if they answer, it feels awfully wrong to just pile on what you think ontop of their views, it seems like i feel guilty when i ask things, i feel like im expecting them to ask the same back.
    just an awkward conversation block. i know i should 'do what i want' and whatever but i dont want to make an arse of myself.
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  4. #54
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    hmm...i love it when people open up and share their experience after i've shared mine...wouldn't even occur to me that they did so w/o me asking.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #55
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    So who's excluding more people's opinions: the NFJ that goes along with what's good for the majority, or the NFP that goes along with what's good for himself in order to truly understand other human beings on a very deep, personal, and individual level (also known as empathizing, in case you were confused)?

    I find it hard to swallow that you could make any sort of argument for "I'm gonna go along with what most other people want" being more selfish than "I'm always gonna go with what I want, everyone else be damned because I believe insincerity is deceptive, dishonest, and unfair to the other individuals involved."
    As is usually the case with you, sim, you're largely missing the fucking point.

    But I already fixed your post for you, so don't sweat it.


    Fi may have the deepest potential for empathy, but it's still going to place its own values above the needs of others whenever the two conflict. What I like about FJs is that they don't do that--others come first for the sake of helping others, which strikes me as genuinely selfless.
    You're still not seeing things from our point of view ["seeing things our way" doesn't have to mean "agreeing with us," jtlyk]. You're so convinced that one is more selfless than the other. It seems contradictory to the whole "don't clump all individuals of a type or all users of a function into the same group as behaving the same way" mentality here - although from that reply I don't necessarily think you should be judging whether anyone is selfless or not.

    You also make FJs sound like doormats: "They're givers! [Implicit: I'm a taker!] So this will for sure work." I get the sense that because NFPs don't succumb to your every whim you consider us selfish, and I find that only a little annoying, but I could be wrong about that sense. I mean you know Fi: fickle, fickle, fickle!

    I'd surely take issue with your proclamation that "most of the time you're right." I've lost count of how many times NFPs have made incorrect assessments of my belief system based on picking up cues that weren't really there.
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    And yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's impossible to fulfill his standards because it's considered offensive if I'm not fully honest about my opinions, but it's also offensive if my opinions don't support him. And since he chooses his values over adapting to me, there's no convincing him to do something different.
    Then go ahead and just break the damn friendship off already. It appears to me that it is quite impossible for you the ENTP to understand this silly and melodramatic INFP friend of yours.

    Do yourself a favor.

    One of his key values is that friends should support each other, so if he's upset about something and I don't support/overtly agree with him about it, I'm in violation of that value and he gets upset with me. So the only option I'm left with in order to preserve our friendship is to just lie and placate him when I think he's being melodramatic about something insignificant. I don't understand how any other option is viable.
    He may not be unhealthy or underdeveloped or immature or anything like that. I'm thinking you just don't understand him and that it's clearly beyond your capabilities to understand where he's coming from, so because you can't wholly fulfill your role as his friend, you need to, like I said before, just cut off that deadweight. That's your other viable option. We don't want you to strain yourself in trying to make this thing work, or in trying to [God forbid] actually understand the essence of Fi, besides its inherent selfishness of course.

  6. #56
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.awesome View Post
    alright to expand this conversation...
    just to add on, as i began to wonder whether its better to just go with the flow of just listening to their views.., or to contribute with your own personal views without being asked them.. as i always ask them things. i seem to be the asker in the relationships, but if they answer, it feels awfully wrong to just pile on what you think ontop of their views, it seems like i feel guilty when i ask things, i feel like im expecting them to ask the same back.
    just an awkward conversation block. i know i should 'do what i want' and whatever but i dont want to make an arse of myself.
    Ahhh..well that's where you don't have to worry
    They're sharing because you took an interest in them. You asked. You want to understand them. You know how much we crave that??? It makes us enthusiastic, coz it means we get to stretch our Fi. Let go. And to make a good connection, we want you to do the same, coz that's the way to get to know one another. And we won't always ask because...well, it's kinda a natural process to us. It kinda..stands to reason that if you have anything to contribute, you will do so, so we can bounce ideas off of each other. Or get to know one another. And that usually happens in turns. I say something, it sparks something in you, which you share, etc etc. The common ground makes you bond

    On the other hand, it can happen that you ask us about something that we are compeltely enthused about and completely get absorbed by telling about it, ranting forever and going on. And..if you were to share your experiences at that point, we would welcome them, but you'd trigger so many more thoughts in us, that we might talk over you
    That too, is not meant in a bad way. That's where the topic overtakes the importance of forming a bond with that person and getting to know them. We're so fascinated by it, that we wanna share everything we know about it, and with your input, more is triggered, to flesh it out fully. Doesn't mean we don't value your input, the focus is just on the topic..and that's where we can appear very selfish and rude.

    Trust me, she wants your input. If anything, I think she's trying to get it by engaging you even as you're trying to leave the convo
    Don't feel weird about, just let her enthusiasm spark yours
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    ENTPs, for example, on this site frequently try to "pull rank" and harrass others, but then they claim to have Fe values that have been stepped on if others are rude. It's kind of shocking and baffling.
    Yeah, TPs can definitely suffer from the dish it out, but can't take it back syndrome. It grates on my Fi because it's "unfair". Hypocritical.

    TP: "OMG, you woke me up by slamming the door really hard, have some regard for others would you?"

    Me: "Kay, I'll try to be more mindful."

    *at night...TP stomps down the stairs and slams door so I wake up*

    Me: "Hey, you made a lot of noise last night."

    TP: "Stop whining."

    ETPs (no offence, but traditionally the "user" type) complaining about selfishness, teh irony. Sometimes "going along with" equals facilitating your bullshitting and that I just can't do. I really think a balance between Fi and Fe is useful.

  8. #58
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Or more like:

    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    TP: "OMG, you woke me up by slamming the door really hard, have some regard for others would you?"

    Me: "Kay, I'll try to be more mindful."

    *at night...TP stomps down the stairs and slams door so I wake up*

    Me "Hey, you made a lot of noise last night."

    TP: "Why are you always trying to put your values on me? What if I like to stomp around the house this way? Stop being so selfish! The thing I like about FJs is that they won't whine to me about all the noise I'm making, which is truly selfless. Try thinking about someone else for once, please."
    ETPs (no offence, but traditionally the "user" type) complaining about selfishness, teh irony.
    The irony, indeed.

    But I don't even know if we could just limit it to only Extraverted TPs but since they're in the hot seat...

  9. #59
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Question..why is it that the Fe-doms/aux have more understanding for Fi-usage than the tertiary, who..by all means, isn't nearly as efficient at the thing he admires so in the doms and aux, and even shares some of our 'selfishness' coz of it? I mean, ExTPs tend to not exactly care if they offend others, and do their own thing as well.
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  10. #60
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    Yeah, TPs can definitely suffer from the dish it out, but can't take it back syndrome. It grates on my Fi because it's "unfair". Hypocritical.

    TP: "OMG, you woke me up by slamming the door really hard, have some regard for others would you?"

    Me: "Kay, I'll try to be more mindful."

    *at night...TP stomps down the stairs and slams door so I wake up*

    Me: "Hey, you made a lot of noise last night."

    TP: "Stop whining."

    ETPs (no offence, but traditionally the "user" type) complaining about selfishness, teh irony. Sometimes "going along with" equals facilitating your bullshitting and that I just can't do. I really think a balance between Fi and Fe is useful.
    Where you screwed up. You didn't admit any fault there. You didn't say "I messed up". So, in future contexts, since you're not playing by those rules, the xxTP doesn't think he or she has to play by those rules, either.

    In the other person's perspective, it's hypocritical of you to complain about making noise, since you never even expressed a personal sentiment that it was wrong in the first place. In essence, you're just complaining to get back for earlier, since you never expressed a sense of making noise at night being a bad thing.

    We don't know your personal values. You've got to show them so we can establish an understanding between us. A big part of that is contrition and admitting fault.

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