[ENFP] xNFP and selfishness?

[Amargith]

:rolli: As far as I'm concerned, just the way in which that first sentence was stated already forfeits your right to an appology. That's just rude and guilttripping on its own. The fact that he's willing to adjust to the guy after he's been that rude, means he's already to be grateful, imo, that you're willing to overlook it and keep his comment in mind. If then he doesn't even bother to repay the courtesy, he can get an earfull. It's kinda natural to do onto others as you would have them do onto you. So if they agree to treat you in a certain way even if they don't see the big deal, at least show the same respect back. It's infuriating to have someone act that much like a jerk.

 

[Jaguar]

In the other person's perspective, it's hypocritical of you to complain about making noise, since you never even expressed a personal sentiment that it was wrong in the first place.

No one has to EXPRESS anything to you, in order for you to be a hypocrite.

 

[onemoretime]

:rolli: As far as I'm concerned, just the way in which that first sentence was stated already forfeits your right to an appology. That's just rude and guilttripping on its own. The fact that he's willing to adjust to the guy after he's been that rude, means he's already to be grateful, imo, that you're willing to overlook it and keep his comment in mind. If then he doesn't even bother to repay the courtesy, he can get an earfull. It's kinda natural to do onto others as you would have them do onto you. So if they agree to treat you in a certain way even if they don't see the big deal, at least show the same respect back. It's infuriating to have someone act that much like a jerk.

It's also joking around. It's not supposed to be taken seriously. We're a bit over the top like that, as you know.

No one has to EXPRESS anything to you, in order for you to be a hypocrite.

The supposed hypocrisy was a reaction to the other person's perceived hypocrisy. No one's actually a hypocrite there. They're just seeing the encounter through very different lenses.

But you knew that already, didn't you?

 

[SillySapienne]

That would work great if most Fi-ers actually did give others the same space. I'm sure the healthy ones do, but the rest of them often resort to passive-aggressive guilt tripping while simultaneously insisting that they hate the idea of intruding on anyone else's space.

You mean *your friend* resorts to passive-aggressive guilt tripping.

I think I speak for most ENFPs when I say,

1.) There's nothing more foul than being passive-aggressive, it's like being half pathetic and half evil which = being pathetic and evil = eww

2.) There's nothing more pathetic than guilt-tripping, EWWW!!! If someone hurts your feelings or does something fucked up, respond appropriately, stick up for yourself, never sheepishly let them continue whatever it is that they're doing and try to hurt them by giving them a pouty guilt-trip, disgusting and pathetic.

3.) The intrusion of space IS IN FACT A BIG We don't like it done to us, we won't do it to you. But things get blurred when we are *sharing an intimate space*, i.e. a place where we both willingly reside, so to speak, in this special space, when things get uncomfortable we might feel intruded upon, but that is just the manifestation of something, some issue that we don't want to address. Unless it is absolutely pertinent to address said issue, we, ENFPs will allow the person their time and space to address the issue themselves.

 

[Amargith]

It's also joking around. It's not supposed to be taken seriously. We're a bit over the top like that, as you know.

Crap, I did it again, didn't I...i think I did. No, I didn't refer to the first sentence of your post, but the way in which in the hypotetical example the TP made his irration known. The amount of rudeness and guilttripping displayed there already forfeits your right to any sympathy imo

I appreciate you trying to explain how it works from the other side, but the thing is, communication comes from both ends. And to me, in the example given, the TJ acknowledged the wishes of the TP and applied them to keep a good bond going, so he assumed that this was the new rule from now on. When the TP then has no problem doing the same thing and when called on, doesn't reciprocate that gesture..that's infuriating. For real.

 

[Jaguar]

The supposed hypocrisy was a reaction to the other person's perceived hypocrisy. No one's actually a hypocrite there. They're just seeing the encounter through very different lenses.

Anyone who bitches about a certain behavior and then does it themselves, is a hypocrite.

 

[Poki]

What I have found is if I take care of an Fi user they will take care of me with Fe. But it is never expected.

No matter what I do an Fe user will take care of me and it is expected in return. Personally it is hard for me to bring in Fi.

Its your call on which version is selfish. I see selfishness in both.

 

[Uytuun]

Where you screwed up. You didn't admit any fault there. You didn't say "I messed up". So, in future contexts, since you're not playing by those rules, the xxTP doesn't think he or she has to play by those rules, either.

In the other person's perspective, it's hypocritical of you to complain about making noise, since you never even expressed a personal sentiment that it was wrong in the first place. In essence, you're just complaining to get back for earlier, since you never expressed a sense of making noise at night being a bad thing.

We don't know your personal values. You've got to show them so we can establish an understanding between us. A big part of that is contrition and admitting fault.

[I see what you did there ]

Definitely sounds like the typical reasoning. It seems a little absurd to me. playing by rules, having to admit fault, getting back...it's a frighteningly literal and self-preservational use of Fe without any form of empathy. Being quiet at night is hardly a personal value, it's a general form of courtesy...I understand that that is how tertiary Fe users work, but if you need to be explicitely told things such as "being noisy at night is a bad thing" (now I realise where the FJ love comes from, though) you might want to learn how to navigate Fe better (some Te for you). It rivals overemphasised Te in its blind roboticness.

And why would he expect me to "admit fault" for some "personal rule" he hadn't explicitely informed me of before then? Seems a little odd.

And what happens when the ETP does something you've told him you don't appreciate before? I suppose that I communicate these things as "I want to read now, I don't appreciate you bugging me." rather than "I want you not to bug me". FJs seem to be fine with that approach, but young ETPs really need it spelled out just right, it seems. Very exhausting. It's not the Fi way to go impose on other people how they should interact or feel. I can adapt my approach a little of course. But tertiary Fe out of control is beyond my abilities. IME, they can have a very tough time interpreting people because of the excessive focus on literal Fe and lack of empathy, leading to paranoia.

The tertiary is a bitch!

 

[onemoretime]

Crap, I did it again, didn't I...i think I did. No, I didn't refer to the first sentence of your post, but the way in which in the hypotetical example the TP made his irration known. The amount of rudeness and guilttripping displayed there already forfeits your right to any sympathy imo

I appreciate you trying to explain how it works from the other side, but the thing is, communication comes from both ends. And to me, in the example given, the TJ acknowledged the wishes of the TP and applied them to keep a good bond going, so he assumed that this was the new rule from now on. When the TP then has no problem doing the same thing and when called on, doesn't reciprocate that gesture..that's infuriating. For real.

I knew what you were saying, don't worry. What you see as rudeness and guilt tripping are likely sarcasm and playful humor in the other person's mind. Most of us know it's rude to act that way toward people you care about, and we think other people know the same thing... so we're using that as a source of humor. In that sense, we're actually trying to defuse the situation by being obviously unreasonably combative, as contradictory as that may seem.

Saying "I'll be mindful in the future" doesn't give any indication that you think what you did was wrong. It sounds like you're only doing it to placate the other person. Rather than validate their feelings of annoyance by accepting wrongdoing, that phrasing makes it seem like the first person is trying to objectify what happened, and make it solely about a procedure to be fixed.

This doesn't address the core issue - you disrespected the first person by being noisy. Saying "I'm sorry, I was wrong for doing that" also indicates you respect the other person, and acknowledge that you acted disrespectfully toward them.

Anyone who bitches about a certain behavior and then does it themselves, is a hypocrite.

Anyone who acts like they don't give a shit about the other person, and then acts indignant when the other person acts like they don't give a shit about the first person, is also a hypocrite.

 

[Poki]

[I see what you did there ]

Definitely sounds like the typical reasoning. It seems a little absurd to me. playing by rules, having to admit fault, getting back...it's a frighteningly literal and self-preservational use of Fe without any form of empathy. Being quiet at night is hardly a personal value, it's a general form of courtesy...

The tertiary is a bitch!

That pretty much defines Fe used as a defense mechanism.

The tertiary form of a function is a bitch!

 

[Amargith]

^^Odd...the thing is, the reason i'd react that way is *becoz* I respect you. I don't adhere to social rules. Hell, I'm not even aware of them. But for you, because it upsets you, I will gladly keep it in mind when I'm around you
It's not placating or disrespecting, in fact, it's respecting you very much as I'm willing to keep something in mind that normally I wouldn't think twice about, when you're around

I don't consider what I did wrong. Personally, if someone wakes me up in the middle of the night, I just go back to sleep UNLESS it kept going on forever (I'm talking 20 min or more here), and it was *every* night and it seriously disrupted my sleep. I won't even mention it to them if it's just that once...they clearly aren't doing it to aggrevate me, and they're having fun..why would I make a big deal out of things then?

Also, the sarcasm and laughing thing..only a good idea if we really really know you well and if you can make the amused tone of voice sound throug hit all, otherwise, you're bound to get a porcupine response. If I myself was bothered by someone in that situation, unless they were really loud and thoughtless about it (then I'll just genuinly get pissed and yell at them), going on forever etc, I would just ask the next day: hey, I heard you come in, can you next time try to keep it down a little, coz I could hear it in my room. Seems that noise echoes quite a lot in the house. Tnx

I don't assume it's already a given that you do that..afterall, how is someone to realize how loud they're being when they're having fun and when they have no clue as to how much the noise travels in the house? I dunno..it seems like such a futile thing to make a big deal out of.

 

[neptunesnet]

In the other person's perspective, it's hypocritical of you to complain about making noise, since you never even expressed a personal sentiment that it was wrong in the first place.

That's such a weak argument considering that it's counter to typical human behavior.

It's common knowledge [within our society] that making a truckload of noise while someone is sleeping is inconsiderate. It's why in the dialogue when the TP makes noise that wakes the Fi-user up the Fi-user doesn't blow up on him. We would assume, unless you've given us reason to believe otherwise, that you weren't at the moment mindful, or even knowledgable, that we were sleeping as we weren't momentarily mindful or knowledgable of your sleeping the night before (why would we knowingly make noise if we know you're asleep?).

True, sometimes Fi-users explode on others when they feel someone stepped on one of their values, but that's usually because we've either made it explicitly clear to you that you've offended us with some of the same behavior you've displayed before, or we wrongly assumed you could pick up on nonverbal communication that something you did was offensive because it made us visibly uncomfortable. For a rare case, the Fi-user may explode on you when they don't understand that their values aren't everyone's values (typical of someone whose young) or when they've become cynical or pessimistic from hurt and are apathetic of other people's feelings (typical of someone whose unhealthy - let me reiterate the average NFP is not unhealthy).


I know I've analysized that hypothetical situation to the edge of its validity, but I work better with examples of that nature.

In essence, you're just complaining to get back for earlier, since you never expressed a sense of making noise at night being a bad thing.

Or perhaps you're wrong and they're not trying to be spiteful. Perhaps the person actually was bothered by the noise, and you're just being unnecessarily suspicious of the other person's intentions and assuming because you'd do something as petty as try to "get back at someone" about something ridiculous as how much noise is being made that the other person would do it, too, when that's not correct.

We don't know your personal values. You've got to show them so we can establish an understanding between us.

Some things are just understood. We may be Fi users, but many of us understand Fe's social rules and consideration.

A big part of that is contrition and admitting fault.

Admitting fault? You mean saying whose right and whose wrong in the situation when that's beside the point? Why turn something that into a competition? That seems to be based more on pride and principle than on finding harmony or some common ground.


And for the record, "Okay. I'll be more mindful" is an implied apology.

 

[onemoretime]

[I see what you did there ]

Definitely sounds like the typical reasoning. It seems a little absurd to me. playing by rules, having to admit fault, getting back...it's a frighteningly literal and self-preservational use of Fe without any form of empathy. Being quiet at night is hardly a personal value, it's a general form of courtesy...I understand that that is how tertiary Fe users work, but if you need to be explicitely told things such as "being noisy at night is a bad thing" (now I realise where the FJ love comes from, though) you might want to learn how to navigate Fe better (Te for you). It rivals overemphasised Te in its blind roboticness.

It's not about being noisy at night. It probably never was about the noise in the first place. He probably doesn't care about the physical act of being awakened. He does care about being disrespected.

And why would he expect me to "admit fault" for some "personal rule" he hadn't explicitely informed me of before then? Seems a little odd.

Because you respect him as a person, and admitting wrongdoing is a sign of respect for a person.

And what happens when the ETP does something you've told him you don't appreciate before? I suppose that I communicate these things as "I want to read now, I don't appreciate you bugging me." rather than "I want you not to bug me". FJs seem to be fine with that approach, but young ETPs really need it spelled out just right, it seems. Very exhausting. It's not the Fi way to go impose on other people how they should interact or feel. I can adapt my approach a little of course. But tertiary Fe out of control is beyond my abilities. IME, they can have a very tough time interpreting people because of the excessive focus on literal Fe and lack of empathy, leading to paranoia.

Once again, validation and respect. "I want you not to bug me" is also saying "I don't care about your needs/desires". It's a very negative, rejecting statement. Saying something like "hey man, I'd really like to hang out, but I've got to read right now, sorry" indicates that you care about the other person, and respect him enough to consider his desires, even if your priorities take precedent.

We have very strong emotions, which influence everything we do. In fact, that's why we often hide them, because without an emotional rock to anchor self-validation to, the pain of rejection is of such a level that I don't know if I can describe it to someone who hasn't felt it themselves. The panic it generates is akin to a fear of imminent death, because it involves the same sorts of neurological pathways. We've evolved to be social creatures, and our emotions are directly tied to this need. Love = safety and life, rejection = danger and death.

The tertiary is a bitch!

Something new to learn every day.

 

[onemoretime]

I don't consider what I did wrong.

That would be fine, if it were about waking the other person up. I know you to be a person who believes it's wrong to disrespect others. So in this circumstance, it's right to apologize for disrespecting the TP.

Also, the sarcasm and laughing thing..only a good idea if we really really know you well and if you can make the amused tone of voice sound throug hit all, otherwise, you're bound to get a porcupine response. If I myself was bothered by someone in that situation, unless they were really loud and thoughtless about it (then I'll just genuinly get pissed and yell at them), going on forever etc, I would just ask the next day: hey, I heard you come in, can you next time try to keep it down a little, coz I could hear it in my room. Seems that noise echoes quite a lot in the house. Tnx

Which is a perfectly good way to approach the situation, if you're the initial one to be wronged.

I don't assume it's already a given that you do that..afterall, how is someone to realize how loud they're being when they're having fun and when they have no clue as to how much the noise travels in the house? I dunno..it seems like such a futile thing to make a big deal out of.

But it's not about the thing itself - it's the disrespect toward the other person. I think you'd agree that this is worth making a big deal about.

 

[Amargith]

See but I already explained that in fact it's a sign of respect..and that in fact your 'sarcasm' is a huge sign of disrespect in my books..so how do you suggest solving that?

 

[onemoretime]

That's such a weak argument considering that it's counter to typical human behavior.

It's common knowledge [within our society] that making a truckload of noise while someone is sleeping is inconsiderate. It's why in the dialogue when the TP makes noise that wakes the Fi-user up the Fi-user doesn't blow up on him. We would assume, unless you've given us reason to believe otherwise, that you weren't at the moment mindful, or even knowledgable, that we were sleeping as we weren't momentarily mindful or knowledgable of your sleeping the night before (why would we knowingly make noise if we know you're asleep?).

It's not about the noise. It's about the inconsideration.

True, sometimes Fi-users explode on others when they feel someone stepped on one of their values, but that's usually because we've either made it explicitly clear to you that you've offended us with some of the same behavior you've displayed before, or we wrongly assumed you could pick up on nonverbal communication that something you did was offensive because it made us visibly uncomfortable. For a rare case, the Fi-user may explode on you when they don't understand that their values aren't everyone's values (typical of someone whose young) or when they've become cynical or pessimistic from hurt and are apathetic of other people's feelings (typical of someone whose unhealthy - let me reiterate the average NFP is not unhealthy).

I don't see how this pertains to the discussion. Enlighten me?

Or perhaps you're wrong and they're not trying to be spiteful. Perhaps the person actually was bothered by the noise, and you're just being unnecessarily suspicious of the other person's intentions and assuming because you'd do something as petty as try to "get back at someone" about something ridiculous as how much noise is being made that the other person would do it, too, when that's not correct.

Here's the logic - you've disrespected me. You said nothing to indicate that you even care that you've disrespected me. So therefore, why do you demand that I act respectfully in turn, when you won't grant me the same level of consideration? You indicated that you didn't think waking someone up was a big deal... then you act like it was a big deal. There's a few ways of interpreting this - you're either acting selfishly in that what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander, you're acting childishly in not remembering the previous issue, or you're trying to mock me for having made the issue in the first place - which disrespects me even more.

With Fe, if you don't mend the status of disrespect, you'll remain categorized as disrespectful, and the worst will be assumed of you. On the other hand, if you validate and respect the other person, there's practically no limit to the benefit of the doubt that's extended toward you.

Some things are just understood. We may be Fi users, but many of us understand Fe's social rules and consideration.

Think about offending an Fi value. That's what we feel when others act inconsiderately toward us. When a statement is made that's factually true, but offensive toward you, do you think it's right to be disregarded in that instance?

We're framing this as an Fi/Fe issue, but it's really an Fe/Te issue.

Admitting fault? You mean saying whose right and whose wrong in the situation when that's beside the point? Why turn something that into a competition? That seems to be based more on pride and principle than on finding harmony or some common ground.

Lack of respect puts you in the "distrusted" category. People in that category are seen as potential threats. The competition is an attempt to neutralize that potential threat. Admitting fault and apologizing for the inconsideration is a sign of respect that puts you back into the "trusted" category, also known as "good graces".

And for the record, "Okay. I'll be more mindful" is an implied apology.

Implied apologies are piss-poor apologies, for the above reasons.

 

[onemoretime]

See but I already explained that in fact it's a sign of respect..and that in fact your 'sarcasm' is a huge sign of disrespect in my books..so how do you suggest solving that?

"Hey, I'm sorry for waking you up last night, it was inconsiderate of me. I'll do my best to make sure it doesn't happen again. However, I really didn't appreciate it when you came in and barked at me the way you did. Next time I do something that bothers you, would you please just tell me calmly? I'd really appreciate it."

 

[Amargith]

"Hey, I'm sorry for waking you up last night, it was inconsiderate of me. I'll do my best to make sure it doesn't happen again. However, I really didn't appreciate it when you came in and barked at me the way you did. Next time I do something that bothers you, would you please just tell me calmly? I'd really appreciate it."

LOL. This is exactly what I do when I'm in a group. Coz yeah, it is the only way of keeping the peace...Fe. At least...if I'm not in a pissy mood after that first comment, or consider it smart to not let it get to me, coz it might be beneficial to keep the person as a friend.

When it's someone I know well though, it is nice to just be able to drop those forced 'manners'

 

[Uytuun]

It's not about being noisy at night. It probably never was about the noise in the first place. He probably doesn't care about the physical act of being awakened. He does care about being disrespected.

You're missing what I'm saying here, namely that tert Fe is looking for trouble if it invests so much of itself in these stupid little things and refuses to look at it beyond literal and self-preservational Fe.

Because you respect him as a person, and admitting wrongdoing is a sign of respect for a person.

Same here, It does not add up with what you said before, namely that something needs to be expressed if it is to be complained about in a non-hypocritical manner. So if he follows that reasoning, then why does he expect me to apologise for something he hadn't expressed before?

Also, admitting wrongdoing may be a sign of respect for someone, but not for everyone and definitely not to the same degree. ETPs seem to forget that.

Once again, validation and respect. "I want you not to bug me" is also saying "I don't care about your needs/desires". It's a very negative, rejecting statement. Saying something like "hey man, I'd really like to hang out, but I've got to read right now, sorry" indicates that you care about the other person, and respect him enough to consider his desires, even if your priorities take precedent.

Ah, I thought you advised the "I want you not to bug me" approach, my bad. And that's just sugar-coating. In the end you want to read now (what you want over his needs). There's no need to be rude about it and you can slap on some sugar, but you'll always have some priority conflicts unless you find someone that wants what you wants (or is capable of manipulating you to want what they want) all the time (sounds familiar, yeah?). It's not sustainable like that. The most selfish acts can be made while trying desperately not to be selfish. Similarly for Fi, the most horrific acts can be made while trying desperately not to be immoral.

I'm under the impression that unhealthy (tert) Fe users expect everything to revolve around (them) getting validation and respect and really overdo it, driving many people away in the process. It also seems that their perception of themselves as goody-two-shoes trying to do best for everyone ("woe is me and other people are disappointing me all the time because they don't go with what I want") and the way they come across to other people (Fi and Fe users) is radically different. Selfless - selfish respectively. And I mean you've mostly been instructing me on how to handle ETPs to their benefit, not really discussing things or responding to critical remarks...

We have very strong emotions, which influence everything we do. In fact, that's why we often hide them, because without an emotional rock to anchor self-validation to, the pain of rejection is of such a level that I don't know if I can describe it to someone who hasn't felt it themselves. The panic it generates is akin to a fear of imminent death, because it involves the same sorts of neurological pathways. We've evolved to be social creatures, and our emotions are directly tied to this need. Love = safety and life, rejection = danger and death.

Rejection does suck and I think a lot of people feel your pain regardless of type, but then why not look at yourself a little instead of at what other people can do for you? Methinks you might enjoy embracing some Fi.

With Fe, if you don't mend the status of disrespect, you'll remain categorized as disrespectful, and the worst will be assumed of you.

Yes and it may lead to the aforementioned paranoia if you don't balance it out with logical reasoning.

PS: speaking of practicing what you preach - how does your addressing me with the rather rude and perspectivally narrow "where you screwed up" fit into the Fe construct? (honest question)

 

[Cybin]

It would really baffle me if I offerred (and followed up) to be more mindful of someone's feelings and they considered that disrespectful because I didn't admit fault explicitly. I suppose Fi types are more comfortable with implicit statements in that regard. If I felt that I was at fault, I would probably say something along the lines of 'I'm sorry, I'll be more mindful in the future.' If I felt I wasn't I would say why 'The door creaks and there just nothing that can be done about it.' or what have you. Really though, the person at fault is only a side issue as long as the issue gets resolved. Someone can admit fault all they want, but the true measure of whether they understand and are sorry is what they do to keep it from happening the the future. No changing the past.