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  1. #31
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I find it hard to swallow that you could make any sort of argument for "I'm gonna go along with what most other people want" being more selfish than "I'm always gonna go with what I want feels right to me, everyone else be damned and give others the space to do the same, as much as I can."
    Fixed
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post

    So who's excluding more people's opinions: the NFJ that goes along with what's good for the majority, or the NFP that goes along with what's good for himself?
    Going along with the majority has the ability to suffocate 1, 1000, or more than 100,000 opinions.

    The majority wears a common suit, made of one opinion.

    If we lived in a society where all opinions were suffocated just to "get along," our fellow man would need no funeral.
    He's already dead.

  3. #33
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Going along with the majority has the ability to suffocate 1, 1000, or more than 100,000 opinions.

    The majority wears a common suit, made of one opinion.

    If we lived in a society where all opinions were suffocated just to "get along," our fellow man would need no funeral.
    He's already dead.
    I'm not talking about taking away right to free speech or anything like that. You're free to have whatever opinions you like.

    I'm just talking about social situations between families and friends involving small interpersonal issues. In these cases it's often more reasonable to set aside your own feelings for the sake of someone else's instead of insist dogmatically on having your way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Fixed
    That would work great if most Fi-ers actually did give others the same space. I'm sure the healthy ones do, but the rest of them often resort to passive-aggressive guilt tripping while simultaneously insisting that they hate the idea of intruding on anyone else's space.

    The advice you guys have given for dealing with my friend would probably work great if he cared about our friendship more than his values, but he doesn't. I lose.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #34
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I know, and that sucks. It's most likely his fears rather than his values though that make him incapable of working this out with you.

    But you have got to stop comparing unhealthy Fi-users with healthy Fe-users. It just..irks people. Immaturity as well as maturity is found in all MBTI species. And there are traits in immature Fe-users that make me wanna strangle them as well at times. Such is life though. And dealing with those people in a proper way and understanding that they are still struggling is actually a sign that you yourself are on your way to being a balanced person yourself

    Also, fwiw, it feels like you lose every damned time if you happen to disagree a lot on the social norms. And everyone else who does like the social norm always gets their way. That too tends to create resentment and make people go 'screw it, this aint worth it.'
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  5. #35
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    I'm still friends with the guy, aren't I?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #36
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I'm still friends with the guy, aren't I?
    *smiles* Yes, and that's great..I'm just trying to give you a way of looking at that friendship that will keep you from feeling like he's handing you the short end of the stick.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I'm just talking about social situations between families and friends involving small interpersonal issues. In these cases it's often more reasonable to set aside your own feelings for the sake of someone else's instead of insist dogmatically on having your way.
    Oh, you can actually do that?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I'm not talking about taking away right to free speech or anything like that. You're free to have whatever opinions you like.

    I'm just talking about social situations between families and friends involving small interpersonal issues. In these cases it's often more reasonable to set aside your own feelings for the sake of someone else's instead of insist dogmatically on having your way.
    ....
    ^I agree with that 100%. Well said.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Fi may have the deepest potential for empathy, but it's still going to place its own values above the needs of others whenever the two conflict. What I like about FJs is that they don't do that--others come first for the sake of helping others, which strikes me as genuinely selfless.
    From a Fi perspective:

    FJs (Fe users) go along with what other people want because they get something out of it...they help others to essentially help themselves. Which is fine, really, if you realise it. In unhealthy (!) Fe users this dynamic becomes very obvious...they want desperately to be needed and affirmed etc. etc. Beyond these things they often have no deep-rooted interest in you. One day you suck because you don't tell them what they want to hear, the next you're amazing because you gave them a compliment. Some of the coldest people I've known are FJs-gone-bad. Sometimes I feel like this going along thing is a way to manipulate you...they give so you would give. I don't think Fi is inherently more selfish than Fe, I do think that it is more subject-oriented than it is object-oriented, which doesn't mean it can't give...it simply does so in a different mode.

    I don't think dogmatically going along with what other people want is any more healthy than stubbornly keeping to your own opinions. Sometimes it's constructive to stop and say "hey, this isn't right"*, sometimes it's good to focus on (empathic) support.

    It's like Ti and Te really. Fe is the more "pragmatic" function.

    *as in possibly with your friend if his behaviour bugs you that much

  10. #40
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I'm not talking about taking away right to free speech or anything like that. You're free to have whatever opinions you like.
    We're free to have whatever feelings we like, too.

    I'm just talking about social situations between families and friends involving small interpersonal issues. In these cases it's often more reasonable to set aside your own feelings for the sake of someone else's instead of insist dogmatically on having your way.
    Fi does this, mostly in terms of letting others have the space to do things their own way. The difficulty arises wherein an immature [note the specific qualification] Fe wants the Fi users to "be happy." Fi doesn't work that way, especially not an immature Fi.

    A mature Fi resolves these issues more by "learning to be happy with almost any situation," as opposed to "setting aside one's feelings." The former is doable, the latter just isn't. (INTJs fake the latter by focusing on Te and suppressing Fi, which is just as bad as letting other people suppress Fi.)


    That would work great if most Fi-ers actually did give others the same space. I'm sure the healthy ones do, but the rest of them often resort to passive-aggressive guilt tripping while simultaneously insisting that they hate the idea of intruding on anyone else's space.

    The advice you guys have given for dealing with my friend would probably work great if he cared about our friendship more than his values, but he doesn't. I lose.
    Not everyone has the same level of maturity in the same ways. That's just how it is. You don't lose anything. If you have the specific problem of a friend who is disrespecting your friendship, and he has strong Fi, the best approach is to ask all these Fi peeps on here how to lead him to a more mature attitude. We probably have some great advice on the topic, if you'd care to take it. Mostly it involves talking to him in Fi/Te terms, which of course is more difficult for you, but it will help you understand how he respects your friendship on his terms and to what degree.

    For my part, I had to learn that while a lot of Fe-style gestures mean practically nothing to me, once I realized how much they meant to those other people, I could look at it in an Fi way: "this is what is important to him, and I respect (and maybe love) him, so I should respect his gesture and not treat it with any sort of implied (though unintended and unfelt) contempt." Using Fi, I'm used to respecting others' feelings by "giving them space", but I can expand it for Ti/Fe by respecting their good intentions even when it feels like they want to manipulate me and disrespect me and invade my emotional space.

    Flip that around to your Ti point of view, and use that to connect with your friend. In particular, do not imply any sort of contempt for how Fi feels: that will go nowhere. Instead, respect the feeling, and explain how you feel and what you need, feeling-wise. The only rule is, don't tell him how he should feel: that works on you, not him. Tell him how he should "think." To you, as Ti, that would be disrespectful, but to him, as Te, it is useful guidance. Address his Te, and he'll "logically" realize how he should behave around you, rather than emotionally make that realization.

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