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  1. #21
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    What if I do enjoy most things about your personality, but think you blow things out of proportion sometimes? If I fake it and pretend I agree with you when I think you're just being melodramatic, is that offensive?
    The fact that you'd hide that, would be an insult. I'm aware I am overwhelming, a lot to take, and if people enjoy who I am but let me know that I make them a bit uncomfortable, that they don't enjoy 'the drama', I'll tone it down..contain it, for them, as i like them and want to make it enjoyable for both of us. On the other hand, it would hurt that you didn't even bother to realize I aint you..and to me this is real. What I tell you is real, is how *I* experience it. Whether you consider it melodramatic or not. I don't roll my eyes at you when you go overanalyzing things either and tell you that you make things more complicated than need be, dismissing your thoughts as if they're just a nuissance, and irrelevant.
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  2. #22
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    The fact that you'd hide that, would be an insult. I'm aware I am overwhelming, a lot to take, and if people enjoy who I am but let me know that I make them a bit uncomfortable, that they don't enjoy 'the drama', I'll tone it down..contain it, for them, as i like them and want to make it enjoyable for both of us. On the other hand, it would hurt that you didn't even bother to realize I aint you..and to me this is real. What I tell you is real, is how *I* experience it. Whether you consider it melodramatic or not. I don't roll my eyes at you when you go overanalyzing things either and tell you that you make things more complicated than need be, dismissing your thoughts as if they're just a nuissance, and irrelevant.
    This puts people like me in a difficult situation with certain type 4 friends. If I give my real opinion it's going to hurt their feelings and they'll be upset that I'm not supporting them as a friend, but if I lie it's insulting because I'm not being genuine.

    One type 4 INFP friend routinely tells me I don't have to walk on eggshells around him, but if I don't then he gets upset with me whenever I disagree with him because I'm not backing up my friend.

    I can't be expected to agree with him 100% of the time...that's not realistic. All relationships encounter some form of disagreement from time to time. And when I think he's being dramatic, he sees it as a perfectly reasonable response to whatever is happening.

    I do genuinely like him as a person and appreciate his friendship deeply...most of the time we get along just fine, but I have difficulty with this situation. He seems to expect unconditional support/agreement and honesty at all times, which I can't simultaneously provide.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #23
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Then sit him down, when you're not having an argument and explain him your predicament. Show that you understand that you're different, that you work in different ways and tell him the effect it has on you, while assuring him that you do like him as a person a lot, but this part of him is sometimes hard for you to deal with. Chances are, he'll adapt this gladly for you.

    I don't need you to agree with me. But I do need you to see where I'm coming from and take me seriously. I can totally understand you having a different pov as you have different priorities and a different personality than I do. Just...don't roll your eyes at me
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  4. #24
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Then sit him down, when you're not having an argument and explain him your predicament. Show that you understand that you're different, that you work in different ways and tell him the effect it has on you, while assuring him that you do like him as a person a lot, but this part of him is sometimes hard for you to deal with. Chances are, he'll adapt this gladly for you.

    I don't need you to agree with me. But I do need you to see where I'm coming from and take me seriously. I can totally understand you having a different pov as you have different priorities and a different personality than I do. Just...don't roll your eyes at me
    I think I've been perfectly civil and open to listening to your ideas during this discussion.

    Anyway, I've tried that and it runs back into the "I'm not going to compromise my feelings" problem. When I ask him not to react in the way that feels emotionally appropriate to him, it feels to him like an imposition on his freedom of expression.

    You have to understand that in the situations where I believe he's overreacting, he doesn't consider his behavior an overreaction. He finds it completely justified and me asking him not to do it is asking him to go against his feelings, which is something 4s typically refuse to do.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #25
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I think I've been perfectly civil and open to listening to your ideas during this discussion.

    Anyway, I've tried that and it runs back into the "I'm not going to compromise my feelings" problem. When I ask him not to react in the way that feels emotionally appropriate to him, it feels to him like an imposition on his freedom of expression.

    You have to understand that in the situations where I believe he's overreacting, he doesn't consider his behavior an overreaction. He finds it completely justified and me asking him not to do it is asking him to go against his feelings, which is something 4s typically refuse to do.
    Oh hon, you misunderstood. I wrote that last part as applicable to your situation with your friend, but, because I don't know where the individual differences within the 4 enneagram start, I wrote that passage from my own experience, meaning that with me, you'd make progress if you kept those words in mind

    And yes, you have been perfectly civil with me

    As for your friend, don't *ask* him to change. Explain to him how it affects you without expecting him to change, so he may understand. Chances are, he'll adapt it himself, that is, if he's able to (depends on how far he is in his 'personal growth' and what your history is.) Also, in the heat of the moment, acknowledge his feelings without judgement (acknowledging does not mean you agree, it just means that you understand that he does feel strongly about these things), you'll find that that already stops the raging and escalating. Then offer your own pov on the situation, how you would respond to the situation yourself. Give him time to mull it over. See what the result is
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  6. #26
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    As for your friend, don't *ask* him to change. Explain to him how it affects you without expecting him to change, so he may understand. Chances are, he'll adapt it himself, that is, if he's able to (depends on how far he is in his 'personal growth' and what your history is.) Also, in the heat of the moment, acknowledge his feelings without judgement (acknowledging does not mean you agree, it just means that you understand that he does feel strongly about these things), you'll find that that already stops the raging and escalating. Then offer your own pov on the situation, how you would respond to the situation yourself. Give him time to mull it over. See what the result is
    So if we ultimately are unable to come to an agreement/he is unwilling to change his behavior for my sake, am I supposed to just terminate the friendship? I don't want to do that. I like the guy 90% of the time.

    Your responses seem to assume that simply explaining the way his behavior negatively impacts me will convince him to change. What if it doesn't? What if being true to his feelings is more important to him than adjusting to mine?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #27
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    So if we ultimately are unable to come to an agreement/he is unwilling to change his behavior for my sake, am I supposed to just terminate the friendship? I don't want to do that. I like the guy 90% of the time.

    Your responses seem to assume that simply explaining the way his behavior negatively impacts me will convince him to change. What if it doesn't? What if being true to his feelings is more important to him than adjusting to mine?
    Then it means 1 of two things:

    a) He's unable to (coz he's not emotionally ready, doesnt have the skills to do so yet)

    b) He considers his values more important than your friendship.

    I'd still try it though, and use the 'feedback rules' to do so. When you talk to most NFPs on here, you'll find they're willing to adapt to the ones they care for as much as possible, because they so value a smooth and deep connection. If you're able to truly make him understand where you're coming from, he is likely to apply it to his behavior because he values you
    If he's still fighting a lot with himself though, he might not be able to control his emotional outbursts that well and though he might try to keep your feelings in mind, he might be inconsistent in his successes.
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  8. #28
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.awesome View Post
    OP - xNFP and selfishness?
    Honestly, it's really all a matter of perception.

    We NFPs due to Fi tend to wallow in our emotions to try to enhance and improve our understanding of where those feelings are coming from, what they mean, why we're having them in the first place, etc. We take a very analytical approach to emotions that is purely subjective and particular to the individual. To those who don't understand Fi or it baffles them, they tend to see the NFP's way of handling feelings (sorry to leave SFPs out - I can't comment on FiSe) as selfish without understanding that, through intellectualizing feelings and understanding their origin and whatpurpose they serve, we Fi-doms/auxs empathize more acutely that way. From another angle, Fi users could claim NFJs of being fake and insincere because they are nice and polite and engage in conversation even when they don't like the people they're interacting with. We could call them superficial because they yield to the whims of the entire group, which would always leave some others out. We could accuse them of disregarding the minority, social outcasts, those not accounted for in the group. We could even call them selfish because we think their motives are really meant for self-promotion and advancing their own social ambitions. However, that would be wrong. Some are unfortunately that way and attain their pride from helping other people. They like the dependency. But for the most part, I know that NFJs truly care about others and theur well-being and want to create an overall harmony. Personally, I see Fi as deep and Fe as expansive, and I think both are quite essential to a promising society.

    Further, this is also why I agree to an extent with naming INFPs the Healer. Although I think Kiersey's description of all MBTI is a bit vapid and establishes only the positives of each, I think the Healer description of the INFPs was intended to highlight that Fi, since it's an internal analysis of feeling, has the greatest potential to be an empathizer, or at least the most genuine. That is not to say that other types cannot be empathizers because they can, but as one considers the limitations of human empathy and the function and utility of Fi (what it actually does), then I can see quite clearly why we're deemed the "Healer."

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Your responses seem to assume that simply explaining the way his behavior negatively impacts me will convince him to change. What if it doesn't?
    He will, particularly if he values you as a friend. If he is a healthy, mature, and balanced INFP, he is probably both introspective about his identity and feelings and about those around him. The latter he uses as a gauge to better understand himself so that he can empathize more easily with other people. It's all circular.

    However, if by chance his values are being compromised by the friendship then he's probably been distancing himself from you for a while now. He'll keep a wall up between you two to protect himself but will still be cordial and friendly to you like before. Sometimes, a comment or behavior can key us into something about you that may go go against a value and ultimately our identity (i.e, you hold certain ideas that we consider vulgar or offensive, etc). We distance, in that case, without telling you because we often don't have any other evidence other than our feelings to prove that you "feel" or "believe" certain things or that you will behave a certain way in the future. Most of the time we are right, but we can't prove it until it happens - and even then we're hesitant to say something because we don't want you to feel like we're plotting against you. Also, he'll probably stay true to himself if it ever comes between your friendship and his values because to the INFP going against his values would not only be going against himself but also against the greater good (as silly and irrational as that seems).

  9. #29
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Because "I'm not ever going to compromise my feelings" sometimes translates into "I should always get my way."
    And "You should compromise your feelings," sometimes translates as, "I do not respect you as a person."

    I might be compelled to work with you in a job-related situation, for instance, where I'm under no obligation to develop a deep connection with you. Or I might be a family member with a familial obligation to interact with you that I didn't voluntarily choose.

    In these situations it seems to make more sense to go with some kind of general standard of behavior instead of always insisting on getting your way.
    What I've noted is that Ti doesn't compromise what one thinks, and Fi doesn't compromise what one feels. Ti will go along with something to please others, but still disagree, but getting along takes a degree of priority over the disagreement. It's the same for Fi: emotionally, we might want to do something or we might not, but we'll do it if we have to. We don't change how we feel about it.

    Fi case:
    "I don't like to do the dishes."
    "But it's your turn to do them."
    "Crap." [does the dishes, with a degree of whining inversely proportional to maturity]
    Ti case:
    "That's a really, really stupid idea."
    "Maybe, but that's what we have to do, right now. We're not calling the shots."
    "Crap." [helps with implementing the idea, with a degree of sniping and criticism inversely proportional to maturity]
    "Selfishness" is a function of one's level of maturity, not MBTI. The expression of that selfishness is aptly described by MBTI, however.

  10. #30
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    Honestly, it's really all a matter of perception.

    We NFPs due to Fi tend to wallow in our emotions to try to enhance and improve our understanding of where those feelings are coming from, what they mean, why we're having them in the first place, etc. We take a very analytical approach to emotions that is purely subjective and particular to the individual. To those who don't understand Fi or it baffles them, they tend to see the NFP's way of handling feelings (sorry to leave SFPs out - I can't comment on FiSe) as selfish without understanding that, through intellectualizing feelings and understanding their origin and whatpurpose they serve, we Fi-doms/auxs empathize more acutely that way.
    I think I got that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    From another angle, Fi users could claim NFJs of being fake and insincere because they are nice and polite and engage in conversation even when they don't like the people they're interacting with. We could call them superficial because they yield to the whims of the entire group, which would always leave some others out. We could accuse them of disregarding the minority, social outcasts, those not accounted for in the group. We could even call them selfish because we think their motives are really meant for self-promotion and advancing their own social ambitions. However, that would be wrong. Some are unfortunately that way and attain their pride from helping other people. They like the dependency. But for the most part, I know that NFJs truly care about others and theur well-being and want to create an overall harmony. Personally, I see Fi as deep and Fe as expansive, and I think both are quite essential to a promising society.
    So who's excluding more people's opinions: the NFJ that goes along with what's good for the majority, or the NFP that goes along with what's good for himself?

    I find it hard to swallow that you could make any sort of argument for "I'm gonna go along with what most other people want" being more selfish than "I'm always gonna go with what I want, everyone else be damned."

    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    Further, this is also why I agree to an extent with naming INFPs the Healer. Although I think Kiersey's description of all MBTI is a bit vapid and establishes only the positives of each, I think the Healer description of the INFPs was intended to highlight that Fi, since it's an internal analysis of feeling, has the greatest potential to be an empathizer, or at least the most genuine. That is not to say that other types cannot be empathizers because they can, but as one considers the limitations of human empathy and the function and utility of Fi (what it actually does), then I can see quite clearly why we're deemed the "Healer."
    Fi may have the deepest potential for empathy, but it's still going to place its own values above the needs of others whenever the two conflict. What I like about FJs is that they don't do that--others come first for the sake of helping others, which strikes me as genuinely selfless.

    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    He will, particularly if he values you as a friend. If he is a healthy, mature, and balanced INFP, he is probably both introspective about his identity and feelings and about those around him. The latter he uses as a gauge to better understand himself so that he can empathize more easily with other people. It's all circular.
    He's not very healthy/mature/well-balanced. He cares about our friendship but not as much as he cares about his values.

    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    However, if by chance his values are being compromised by the friendship then he's probably been distancing himself from you for a while now. He'll keep a wall up between you two to protect himself but will still be cordial and friendly to you like before. Sometimes, a comment or behavior can key us into something about you that may go go against a value and ultimately our identity (i.e, you hold certain ideas that we consider vulgar or offensive, etc). We distance, in that case, without telling you because we often don't have any other evidence other than our feelings to prove that you "feel" or "believe" certain things or that you will behave a certain way in the future. Most of the time we are right, but we can't prove it until it happens - and even then we're hesitant to say something because we don't want you to feel like we're plotting against you. Also, he'll probably stay true to himself if it ever comes between your friendship and his values because to the INFP going against his values would not only be going against himself but also against the greater good (as silly and irrational as that seems).
    I'd surely take issue with your proclamation that "most of the time you're right." I've lost count of how many times NFPs have made incorrect assessments of my belief system based on picking up cues that weren't really there.

    And yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's impossible to fulfill his standards because it's considered offensive if I'm not fully honest about my opinions, but it's also offensive if my opinions don't support him. And since he chooses his values over adapting to me, there's no convincing him to do something different.

    One of his key values is that friends should support each other, so if he's upset about something and I don't support/overtly agree with him about it, I'm in violation of that value and he gets upset with me. So the only option I'm left with in order to preserve our friendship is to just lie and placate him when I think he's being melodramatic about something insignificant. I don't understand how any other option is viable.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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