[ENFP] xNFP and selfishness?

[Uytuun]

once I realized how much they meant to those other people, I could look at it in an Fi way: "this is what is important to him, and I respect (and maybe love) him, so I should respect his gesture

Yup, that's where the empathy comes in to give people what they need.

 

[Charmed Justice]

I'm not talking about taking away right to free speech or anything like that. You're free to have whatever opinions you like.

I'm just talking about social situations between families and friends involving small interpersonal issues. In these cases it's often more reasonable to set aside your own feelings for the sake of someone else's instead of insist dogmatically on having your way.

Isn't it more advantageous to have access to both Fi and Fe attitudes? To have a sense of values, and be conscious and adherent of their importance in your personal life; but also have enough humility to be able to analyze the validity of your own understanding, and enough empathy to be capable of accommodating and putting yourself aside in order to reach a consensus when that makes the most sense? Dependency on either attitude could be circumstantially deleterious.

 

[Jaguar]

Isn't it more advantageous to have access to both Fi and Fe attitudes?

But, but, but, that's "impossible."

 

[Charmed Justice]

But, but, but, that's "impossible."

We're all impossible.

 

[simulatedworld]

It's not impossible; it's just that one of the two (Fe or Fi) is always going to be much harder than the other. I don't buy that you're equally strong in both.

 

[Little Linguist]

Sure, everyone has both. They just don't have both equally.

If you have Fe without Fi, you have no sense of self.

If you have Fi without Fe, you have no sense of others.

 

[Cybin]

Dom/AuxFi typically has difficulty drawing the lines between what's good for the self and what's good for their self. Where Fe tends to focus on interactions and external moods in hopes of making peace travel inwards, Fi focuses internally to help that peace travel outwards. Ideally speaking, of course.

Young or immature Fi types do fall easily, especially in the prevalent environments that do no nurture such a quality, into thinking the way that they feel is the way that everyone feels. However, it is a very human quality to think that one knows best. This transcends type. Fi studies and analyzes itself first to give base to understand others. The point of maturity is past this point, but I do believe that it's essential to build this foundation. It's through development and mature use of the perceiving function to ensure the Fi user has the information needed to make adequate judgments based not on their own feelings, but what they feel is right. The difference between that is enormous. Of course, as humans, error is bound to happen.

Not to be redundant, but I want to continue the emphasis that I'm speaking in ideal terms. In a case where the Fi user is trampling over others or in the case of an Fi crusade, it occurs typically because the Fi user has felt that there are subjects (not necesarily themselves) who are being overlooked, taken advantage of, or what have you. Fi is a subject oriented judging process and is not inherently more selfish than any other. Although, as the process invlves knowing oneself it has very large pitfalls to be that way.

More to the topic at hand, I suppose. It seems to me that Fi types do speak about themselves. To some Fi's, this is an invitation to be let in more closely to them. Provided maturity, this also means they probably hope you reciprocate with your own thoughts and ideas to get to know you more closely.

 

[Thalassa]

So in the past months the past two women ive been attracted to have 2 things in common..
1. They were both xNFP, [one tested more E, one more I]
2. I cant help but get the vibe they only want to talk about themselves.

Honest to god, one of them was a ginormous flirt, and was open about it, it was very obvious the relationship from her perspective was 90% eye candy and 10% communication. as all she wanted to seem to do when around me was talk about other boys she hangs out with and takes pictures of me.
The other, relationship is a healthy 10% attraction and 90% communication. but the communication is always about her. when a topic is coming to a close its like she just keeps saying random shiz about her friends and stuff i already know and is just shouting awkward small talk. the connection is there but dear god does she really not care so much as to put off the topic of me?

insight? help?

Actually they both sound ENFP to me because of the blah blah blah. I am guilty of this, and especially younger girls are going to do this, but I think it's a trait of the type to prattle on and I wouldn't necessarily say it's consciously being "selfish." The first girl you described sounds more immature, IMO, and maybe even insecure - like by talking about other boys she's trying to reassure herself of her attractiveness or try to make you jealous and "want her."

The thing the second girl is doing is probably trying to keep a connection or a vibe with you by continuing talking. She probably isn't even aware of what she's doing, but I can reassure you that she likes you and trusts you if she does this to you. That may not be comforting, but what I suggest is that you assert yourself more and bring up things you want to talk about. Be honest with her about how you feel, like she's not letting you talk about yourself. She may be embarrassed and not even realize that she's doing it, especially if you're a very quiet introvert she might think you simply don't feel like talking if you don't.

 

[Fecal McAngry]

Sure, everyone has both. They just don't have both equally.

If you have Fe without Fi, you have no sense of self.

If you have Fi without Fe, you have no sense of others.

Sorta kinda. Extroverted judging functions are vastly easier to fake, to some extent. While it's easy to cite an Fi user like INFP John Lennon getting himself into much trouble by violating Fe mores with his "Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue with that; I'm right and I will be proved right. We're more popular than Jesus now; I don't know which will go first - rock 'n' roll or Christianity. Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It's them twisting it that ruins it for me." statement due to obliviousness of external social mores, for every such transgression, there are a thousand examples of FPs/TJs going along to get along and so on...

You already know this. We all already know this. why am I saying this? I have no idea. Perhaps I should have a snack.

 

[professor goodstain]

Actually they both sound ENFP to me because of the blah blah blah.

i'm not so sure. perhaps the second had dialog with him more mono e mono. if the environment was comfortable for her, the E will come out more expressed

 

[Thalassa]

i'm not so sure. perhaps the second had dialog with him more mono e mono. if the environment was comfortable for her, the E will come out more expressed

I see your point, but the fact that he's an INFP himself and still feels like she keeps talking when he wants to (in fact, I'm actually wondering what exactly is keeping him from talking about himself and if she's really so self-absorbed that she talks over him he really needs to let her know) it makes me think that she's more extroverted than he is. I could be wrong.

 

[Thalassa]

Because "I'm not ever going to compromise my feelings" sometimes translates into "I should always get my way."

I might be compelled to work with you in a job-related situation, for instance, where I'm under no obligation to develop a deep connection with you. Or I might be a family member with a familial obligation to interact with you that I didn't voluntarily choose.

In these situations it seems to make more sense to go with some kind of general standard of behavior instead of always insisting on getting your way.

I agree with you. I think someone who has Fi who can't EVER compromise or understand that compromise is an important part of relationships, or who NEVER questions their feelings is immature.

I'm not sure why, though, you think only Fi-ers do this sort of thing. Other types can be very uncompromising in other ways. ENTPs, for example, on this site frequently try to "pull rank" and harrass others, but then they claim to have Fe values that have been stepped on if others are rude. It's kind of shocking and baffling. Same with any sort of TJ - they can bulldoze others with Te and be uncompromising about the right way to do things and be bossy. Fe can certainly bulldoze others, too, and be intrusive and lack boundaries with other people.

I think it's nice that you admire FJs for being selfless - but they aren't ALWAYS selfless. It's like you're comparing best case scenario to worst case scenario. It also bears pointing out the fact that if you value selflessness so much you must be pretty damn selfish yourself if you are comforted by the idea of a partner catering to your whims with little regards to their own wants and needs.

 

[mr.awesome]

alright to expand this conversation...
just to add on, as i began to wonder whether its better to just go with the flow of just listening to their views.., or to contribute with your own personal views without being asked them.. as i always ask them things. i seem to be the asker in the relationships, but if they answer, it feels awfully wrong to just pile on what you think ontop of their views, it seems like i feel guilty when i ask things, i feel like im expecting them to ask the same back.
just an awkward conversation block. i know i should 'do what i want' and whatever but i dont want to make an arse of myself.

 

[Lady_X]

hmm...i love it when people open up and share their experience after i've shared mine...wouldn't even occur to me that they did so w/o me asking.

 

[neptunesnet]

So who's excluding more people's opinions: the NFJ that goes along with what's good for the majority, or the NFP that goes along with what's good for himself in order to truly understand other human beings on a very deep, personal, and individual level (also known as empathizing, in case you were confused)?

I find it hard to swallow that you could make any sort of argument for "I'm gonna go along with what most other people want" being more selfish than "I'm always gonna go with what I want, everyone else be damned because I believe insincerity is deceptive, dishonest, and unfair to the other individuals involved."

As is usually the case with you, sim, you're largely missing the fucking point.

But I already fixed your post for you, so don't sweat it.

Fi may have the deepest potential for empathy, but it's still going to place its own values above the needs of others whenever the two conflict. What I like about FJs is that they don't do that--others come first for the sake of helping others, which strikes me as genuinely selfless.

You're still not seeing things from our point of view ["seeing things our way" doesn't have to mean "agreeing with us," jtlyk]. You're so convinced that one is more selfless than the other. It seems contradictory to the whole "don't clump all individuals of a type or all users of a function into the same group as behaving the same way" mentality here - although from that reply I don't necessarily think you should be judging whether anyone is selfless or not.

You also make FJs sound like doormats: "They're givers! [Implicit: I'm a taker!] So this will for sure work." I get the sense that because NFPs don't succumb to your every whim you consider us selfish, and I find that only a little annoying, but I could be wrong about that sense. I mean you know Fi: fickle, fickle, fickle!

I'd surely take issue with your proclamation that "most of the time you're right." I've lost count of how many times NFPs have made incorrect assessments of my belief system based on picking up cues that weren't really there.

It's just because you're a mutant.

Our license doesn't cover that.

And yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's impossible to fulfill his standards because it's considered offensive if I'm not fully honest about my opinions, but it's also offensive if my opinions don't support him. And since he chooses his values over adapting to me, there's no convincing him to do something different.

Then go ahead and just break the damn friendship off already. It appears to me that it is quite impossible for you the ENTP to understand this silly and melodramatic INFP friend of yours.

Do yourself a favor.

One of his key values is that friends should support each other, so if he's upset about something and I don't support/overtly agree with him about it, I'm in violation of that value and he gets upset with me. So the only option I'm left with in order to preserve our friendship is to just lie and placate him when I think he's being melodramatic about something insignificant. I don't understand how any other option is viable.

He may not be unhealthy or underdeveloped or immature or anything like that. I'm thinking you just don't understand him and that it's clearly beyond your capabilities to understand where he's coming from, so because you can't wholly fulfill your role as his friend, you need to, like I said before, just cut off that deadweight. That's your other viable option. We don't want you to strain yourself in trying to make this thing work, or in trying to [God forbid] actually understand the essence of Fi, besides its inherent selfishness of course.

 

[Amargith]

alright to expand this conversation...
just to add on, as i began to wonder whether its better to just go with the flow of just listening to their views.., or to contribute with your own personal views without being asked them.. as i always ask them things. i seem to be the asker in the relationships, but if they answer, it feels awfully wrong to just pile on what you think ontop of their views, it seems like i feel guilty when i ask things, i feel like im expecting them to ask the same back.
just an awkward conversation block. i know i should 'do what i want' and whatever but i dont want to make an arse of myself.

Ahhh..well that's where you don't have to worry
They're sharing because you took an interest in them. You asked. You want to understand them. You know how much we crave that??? It makes us enthusiastic, coz it means we get to stretch our Fi. Let go. And to make a good connection, we want you to do the same, coz that's the way to get to know one another. And we won't always ask because...well, it's kinda a natural process to us. It kinda..stands to reason that if you have anything to contribute, you will do so, so we can bounce ideas off of each other. Or get to know one another. And that usually happens in turns. I say something, it sparks something in you, which you share, etc etc. The common ground makes you bond

On the other hand, it can happen that you ask us about something that we are compeltely enthused about and completely get absorbed by telling about it, ranting forever and going on. And..if you were to share your experiences at that point, we would welcome them, but you'd trigger so many more thoughts in us, that we might talk over you
That too, is not meant in a bad way. That's where the topic overtakes the importance of forming a bond with that person and getting to know them. We're so fascinated by it, that we wanna share everything we know about it, and with your input, more is triggered, to flesh it out fully. Doesn't mean we don't value your input, the focus is just on the topic..and that's where we can appear very selfish and rude.

Trust me, she wants your input. If anything, I think she's trying to get it by engaging you even as you're trying to leave the convo
Don't feel weird about, just let her enthusiasm spark yours

 

[Uytuun]

ENTPs, for example, on this site frequently try to "pull rank" and harrass others, but then they claim to have Fe values that have been stepped on if others are rude. It's kind of shocking and baffling.

Yeah, TPs can definitely suffer from the dish it out, but can't take it back syndrome. It grates on my Fi because it's "unfair". Hypocritical.

TP: "OMG, you woke me up by slamming the door really hard, have some regard for others would you?"

Me: "Kay, I'll try to be more mindful."

*at night...TP stomps down the stairs and slams door so I wake up*

Me: "Hey, you made a lot of noise last night."

TP: "Stop whining."

ETPs (no offence, but traditionally the "user" type) complaining about selfishness, teh irony. Sometimes "going along with" equals facilitating your bullshitting and that I just can't do. I really think a balance between Fi and Fe is useful.

 

[neptunesnet]

Or more like:

TP: "OMG, you woke me up by slamming the door really hard, have some regard for others would you?"

Me: "Kay, I'll try to be more mindful."

*at night...TP stomps down the stairs and slams door so I wake up*

Me "Hey, you made a lot of noise last night."

TP: "Why are you always trying to put your values on me? What if I like to stomp around the house this way? Stop being so selfish! The thing I like about FJs is that they won't whine to me about all the noise I'm making, which is truly selfless. Try thinking about someone else for once, please."

ETPs (no offence, but traditionally the "user" type) complaining about selfishness, teh irony.

The irony, indeed.

But I don't even know if we could just limit it to only Extraverted TPs but since they're in the hot seat...

 

[Amargith]

Question..why is it that the Fe-doms/aux have more understanding for Fi-usage than the tertiary, who..by all means, isn't nearly as efficient at the thing he admires so in the doms and aux, and even shares some of our 'selfishness' coz of it? I mean, ExTPs tend to not exactly care if they offend others, and do their own thing as well.

 

[onemoretime]

Yeah, TPs can definitely suffer from the dish it out, but can't take it back syndrome. It grates on my Fi because it's "unfair". Hypocritical.

TP: "OMG, you woke me up by slamming the door really hard, have some regard for others would you?"

Me: "Kay, I'll try to be more mindful."

*at night...TP stomps down the stairs and slams door so I wake up*

Me: "Hey, you made a lot of noise last night."

TP: "Stop whining."

ETPs (no offence, but traditionally the "user" type) complaining about selfishness, teh irony. Sometimes "going along with" equals facilitating your bullshitting and that I just can't do. I really think a balance between Fi and Fe is useful.

Where you screwed up. You didn't admit any fault there. You didn't say "I messed up". So, in future contexts, since you're not playing by those rules, the xxTP doesn't think he or she has to play by those rules, either.

In the other person's perspective, it's hypocritical of you to complain about making noise, since you never even expressed a personal sentiment that it was wrong in the first place. In essence, you're just complaining to get back for earlier, since you never expressed a sense of making noise at night being a bad thing.

We don't know your personal values. You've got to show them so we can establish an understanding between us. A big part of that is contrition and admitting fault.