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[ENFP] xNFP and selfishness?

Amargith

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What if I do enjoy most things about your personality, but think you blow things out of proportion sometimes? If I fake it and pretend I agree with you when I think you're just being melodramatic, is that offensive?

The fact that you'd hide that, would be an insult. I'm aware I am overwhelming, a lot to take, and if people enjoy who I am but let me know that I make them a bit uncomfortable, that they don't enjoy 'the drama', I'll tone it down..contain it, for them, as i like them and want to make it enjoyable for both of us. On the other hand, it would hurt that you didn't even bother to realize I aint you..and to me this is real. What I tell you is real, is how *I* experience it. Whether you consider it melodramatic or not. I don't roll my eyes at you when you go overanalyzing things either and tell you that you make things more complicated than need be, dismissing your thoughts as if they're just a nuissance, and irrelevant.
 

simulatedworld

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The fact that you'd hide that, would be an insult. I'm aware I am overwhelming, a lot to take, and if people enjoy who I am but let me know that I make them a bit uncomfortable, that they don't enjoy 'the drama', I'll tone it down..contain it, for them, as i like them and want to make it enjoyable for both of us. On the other hand, it would hurt that you didn't even bother to realize I aint you..and to me this is real. What I tell you is real, is how *I* experience it. Whether you consider it melodramatic or not. I don't roll my eyes at you when you go overanalyzing things either and tell you that you make things more complicated than need be, dismissing your thoughts as if they're just a nuissance, and irrelevant.

This puts people like me in a difficult situation with certain type 4 friends. If I give my real opinion it's going to hurt their feelings and they'll be upset that I'm not supporting them as a friend, but if I lie it's insulting because I'm not being genuine.

One type 4 INFP friend routinely tells me I don't have to walk on eggshells around him, but if I don't then he gets upset with me whenever I disagree with him because I'm not backing up my friend.

I can't be expected to agree with him 100% of the time...that's not realistic. All relationships encounter some form of disagreement from time to time. And when I think he's being dramatic, he sees it as a perfectly reasonable response to whatever is happening.

I do genuinely like him as a person and appreciate his friendship deeply...most of the time we get along just fine, but I have difficulty with this situation. He seems to expect unconditional support/agreement and honesty at all times, which I can't simultaneously provide.
 

Amargith

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Then sit him down, when you're not having an argument and explain him your predicament. Show that you understand that you're different, that you work in different ways and tell him the effect it has on you, while assuring him that you do like him as a person a lot, but this part of him is sometimes hard for you to deal with. Chances are, he'll adapt this gladly for you.

I don't need you to agree with me. But I do need you to see where I'm coming from and take me seriously. I can totally understand you having a different pov as you have different priorities and a different personality than I do. Just...don't roll your eyes at me :)
 

simulatedworld

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Then sit him down, when you're not having an argument and explain him your predicament. Show that you understand that you're different, that you work in different ways and tell him the effect it has on you, while assuring him that you do like him as a person a lot, but this part of him is sometimes hard for you to deal with. Chances are, he'll adapt this gladly for you.

I don't need you to agree with me. But I do need you to see where I'm coming from and take me seriously. I can totally understand you having a different pov as you have different priorities and a different personality than I do. Just...don't roll your eyes at me :)

I think I've been perfectly civil and open to listening to your ideas during this discussion.

Anyway, I've tried that and it runs back into the "I'm not going to compromise my feelings" problem. When I ask him not to react in the way that feels emotionally appropriate to him, it feels to him like an imposition on his freedom of expression.

You have to understand that in the situations where I believe he's overreacting, he doesn't consider his behavior an overreaction. He finds it completely justified and me asking him not to do it is asking him to go against his feelings, which is something 4s typically refuse to do.
 

Amargith

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I think I've been perfectly civil and open to listening to your ideas during this discussion.

Anyway, I've tried that and it runs back into the "I'm not going to compromise my feelings" problem. When I ask him not to react in the way that feels emotionally appropriate to him, it feels to him like an imposition on his freedom of expression.

You have to understand that in the situations where I believe he's overreacting, he doesn't consider his behavior an overreaction. He finds it completely justified and me asking him not to do it is asking him to go against his feelings, which is something 4s typically refuse to do.

Oh hon, you misunderstood. I wrote that last part as applicable to your situation with your friend, but, because I don't know where the individual differences within the 4 enneagram start, I wrote that passage from my own experience, meaning that with me, you'd make progress if you kept those words in mind :)

And yes, you have been perfectly civil with me :)

As for your friend, don't *ask* him to change. Explain to him how it affects you without expecting him to change, so he may understand. Chances are, he'll adapt it himself, that is, if he's able to (depends on how far he is in his 'personal growth' and what your history is.) Also, in the heat of the moment, acknowledge his feelings without judgement (acknowledging does not mean you agree, it just means that you understand that he does feel strongly about these things), you'll find that that already stops the raging and escalating. Then offer your own pov on the situation, how you would respond to the situation yourself. Give him time to mull it over. See what the result is :)
 

simulatedworld

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As for your friend, don't *ask* him to change. Explain to him how it affects you without expecting him to change, so he may understand. Chances are, he'll adapt it himself, that is, if he's able to (depends on how far he is in his 'personal growth' and what your history is.) Also, in the heat of the moment, acknowledge his feelings without judgement (acknowledging does not mean you agree, it just means that you understand that he does feel strongly about these things), you'll find that that already stops the raging and escalating. Then offer your own pov on the situation, how you would respond to the situation yourself. Give him time to mull it over. See what the result is :)

So if we ultimately are unable to come to an agreement/he is unwilling to change his behavior for my sake, am I supposed to just terminate the friendship? I don't want to do that. I like the guy 90% of the time.

Your responses seem to assume that simply explaining the way his behavior negatively impacts me will convince him to change. What if it doesn't? What if being true to his feelings is more important to him than adjusting to mine?
 

Amargith

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So if we ultimately are unable to come to an agreement/he is unwilling to change his behavior for my sake, am I supposed to just terminate the friendship? I don't want to do that. I like the guy 90% of the time.

Your responses seem to assume that simply explaining the way his behavior negatively impacts me will convince him to change. What if it doesn't? What if being true to his feelings is more important to him than adjusting to mine?

Then it means 1 of two things:

a) He's unable to (coz he's not emotionally ready, doesnt have the skills to do so yet)

b) He considers his values more important than your friendship.

I'd still try it though, and use the 'feedback rules' to do so. When you talk to most NFPs on here, you'll find they're willing to adapt to the ones they care for as much as possible, because they so value a smooth and deep connection. If you're able to truly make him understand where you're coming from, he is likely to apply it to his behavior because he values you :)
If he's still fighting a lot with himself though, he might not be able to control his emotional outbursts that well and though he might try to keep your feelings in mind, he might be inconsistent in his successes.
 

neptunesnet

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OP - xNFP and selfishness?

Honestly, it's really all a matter of perception.

We NFPs due to Fi tend to wallow in our emotions to try to enhance and improve our understanding of where those feelings are coming from, what they mean, why we're having them in the first place, etc. We take a very analytical approach to emotions that is purely subjective and particular to the individual. To those who don't understand Fi or it baffles them, they tend to see the NFP's way of handling feelings (sorry to leave SFPs out - I can't comment on FiSe) as selfish without understanding that, through intellectualizing feelings and understanding their origin and whatpurpose they serve, we Fi-doms/auxs empathize more acutely that way. From another angle, Fi users could claim NFJs of being fake and insincere because they are nice and polite and engage in conversation even when they don't like the people they're interacting with. We could call them superficial because they yield to the whims of the entire group, which would always leave some others out. We could accuse them of disregarding the minority, social outcasts, those not accounted for in the group. We could even call them selfish because we think their motives are really meant for self-promotion and advancing their own social ambitions. However, that would be wrong. Some are unfortunately that way and attain their pride from helping other people. They like the dependency. But for the most part, I know that NFJs truly care about others and theur well-being and want to create an overall harmony. Personally, I see Fi as deep and Fe as expansive, and I think both are quite essential to a promising society.

Further, this is also why I agree to an extent with naming INFPs the Healer. Although I think Kiersey's description of all MBTI is a bit vapid and establishes only the positives of each, I think the Healer description of the INFPs was intended to highlight that Fi, since it's an internal analysis of feeling, has the greatest potential to be an empathizer, or at least the most genuine. That is not to say that other types cannot be empathizers because they can, but as one considers the limitations of human empathy and the function and utility of Fi (what it actually does), then I can see quite clearly why we're deemed the "Healer."

Your responses seem to assume that simply explaining the way his behavior negatively impacts me will convince him to change. What if it doesn't?

He will, particularly if he values you as a friend. If he is a healthy, mature, and balanced INFP, he is probably both introspective about his identity and feelings and about those around him. The latter he uses as a gauge to better understand himself so that he can empathize more easily with other people. It's all circular.

However, if by chance his values are being compromised by the friendship then he's probably been distancing himself from you for a while now. He'll keep a wall up between you two to protect himself but will still be cordial and friendly to you like before. Sometimes, a comment or behavior can key us into something about you that may go go against a value and ultimately our identity (i.e, you hold certain ideas that we consider vulgar or offensive, etc). We distance, in that case, without telling you because we often don't have any other evidence other than our feelings to prove that you "feel" or "believe" certain things or that you will behave a certain way in the future. Most of the time we are right, but we can't prove it until it happens - and even then we're hesitant to say something because we don't want you to feel like we're plotting against you. Also, he'll probably stay true to himself if it ever comes between your friendship and his values because to the INFP going against his values would not only be going against himself but also against the greater good (as silly and irrational as that seems).
 

uumlau

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Because "I'm not ever going to compromise my feelings" sometimes translates into "I should always get my way."
And "You should compromise your feelings," sometimes translates as, "I do not respect you as a person."

I might be compelled to work with you in a job-related situation, for instance, where I'm under no obligation to develop a deep connection with you. Or I might be a family member with a familial obligation to interact with you that I didn't voluntarily choose.

In these situations it seems to make more sense to go with some kind of general standard of behavior instead of always insisting on getting your way.

What I've noted is that Ti doesn't compromise what one thinks, and Fi doesn't compromise what one feels. Ti will go along with something to please others, but still disagree, but getting along takes a degree of priority over the disagreement. It's the same for Fi: emotionally, we might want to do something or we might not, but we'll do it if we have to. We don't change how we feel about it.

Fi case:
"I don't like to do the dishes."
"But it's your turn to do them."
"Crap." [does the dishes, with a degree of whining inversely proportional to maturity]

Ti case:
"That's a really, really stupid idea."
"Maybe, but that's what we have to do, right now. We're not calling the shots."
"Crap." [helps with implementing the idea, with a degree of sniping and criticism inversely proportional to maturity]

"Selfishness" is a function of one's level of maturity, not MBTI. The expression of that selfishness is aptly described by MBTI, however.
 

simulatedworld

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Honestly, it's really all a matter of perception.

We NFPs due to Fi tend to wallow in our emotions to try to enhance and improve our understanding of where those feelings are coming from, what they mean, why we're having them in the first place, etc. We take a very analytical approach to emotions that is purely subjective and particular to the individual. To those who don't understand Fi or it baffles them, they tend to see the NFP's way of handling feelings (sorry to leave SFPs out - I can't comment on FiSe) as selfish without understanding that, through intellectualizing feelings and understanding their origin and whatpurpose they serve, we Fi-doms/auxs empathize more acutely that way.

I think I got that much.

From another angle, Fi users could claim NFJs of being fake and insincere because they are nice and polite and engage in conversation even when they don't like the people they're interacting with. We could call them superficial because they yield to the whims of the entire group, which would always leave some others out. We could accuse them of disregarding the minority, social outcasts, those not accounted for in the group. We could even call them selfish because we think their motives are really meant for self-promotion and advancing their own social ambitions. However, that would be wrong. Some are unfortunately that way and attain their pride from helping other people. They like the dependency. But for the most part, I know that NFJs truly care about others and theur well-being and want to create an overall harmony. Personally, I see Fi as deep and Fe as expansive, and I think both are quite essential to a promising society.

So who's excluding more people's opinions: the NFJ that goes along with what's good for the majority, or the NFP that goes along with what's good for himself?

I find it hard to swallow that you could make any sort of argument for "I'm gonna go along with what most other people want" being more selfish than "I'm always gonna go with what I want, everyone else be damned."

Further, this is also why I agree to an extent with naming INFPs the Healer. Although I think Kiersey's description of all MBTI is a bit vapid and establishes only the positives of each, I think the Healer description of the INFPs was intended to highlight that Fi, since it's an internal analysis of feeling, has the greatest potential to be an empathizer, or at least the most genuine. That is not to say that other types cannot be empathizers because they can, but as one considers the limitations of human empathy and the function and utility of Fi (what it actually does), then I can see quite clearly why we're deemed the "Healer."

Fi may have the deepest potential for empathy, but it's still going to place its own values above the needs of others whenever the two conflict. What I like about FJs is that they don't do that--others come first for the sake of helping others, which strikes me as genuinely selfless.

He will, particularly if he values you as a friend. If he is a healthy, mature, and balanced INFP, he is probably both introspective about his identity and feelings and about those around him. The latter he uses as a gauge to better understand himself so that he can empathize more easily with other people. It's all circular.

He's not very healthy/mature/well-balanced. He cares about our friendship but not as much as he cares about his values.

However, if by chance his values are being compromised by the friendship then he's probably been distancing himself from you for a while now. He'll keep a wall up between you two to protect himself but will still be cordial and friendly to you like before. Sometimes, a comment or behavior can key us into something about you that may go go against a value and ultimately our identity (i.e, you hold certain ideas that we consider vulgar or offensive, etc). We distance, in that case, without telling you because we often don't have any other evidence other than our feelings to prove that you "feel" or "believe" certain things or that you will behave a certain way in the future. Most of the time we are right, but we can't prove it until it happens - and even then we're hesitant to say something because we don't want you to feel like we're plotting against you. Also, he'll probably stay true to himself if it ever comes between your friendship and his values because to the INFP going against his values would not only be going against himself but also against the greater good (as silly and irrational as that seems).

I'd surely take issue with your proclamation that "most of the time you're right." I've lost count of how many times NFPs have made incorrect assessments of my belief system based on picking up cues that weren't really there.

And yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's impossible to fulfill his standards because it's considered offensive if I'm not fully honest about my opinions, but it's also offensive if my opinions don't support him. And since he chooses his values over adapting to me, there's no convincing him to do something different.

One of his key values is that friends should support each other, so if he's upset about something and I don't support/overtly agree with him about it, I'm in violation of that value and he gets upset with me. So the only option I'm left with in order to preserve our friendship is to just lie and placate him when I think he's being melodramatic about something insignificant. I don't understand how any other option is viable.
 

Amargith

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I find it hard to swallow that you could make any sort of argument for "I'm gonna go along with what most other people want" being more selfish than "I'm always gonna go with what I want feels right to me, everyone else be damned and give others the space to do the same, as much as I can."

Fixed ;)
 

Jaguar

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So who's excluding more people's opinions: the NFJ that goes along with what's good for the majority, or the NFP that goes along with what's good for himself?

Going along with the majority has the ability to suffocate 1, 1000, or more than 100,000 opinions.

The majority wears a common suit, made of one opinion.

If we lived in a society where all opinions were suffocated just to "get along," our fellow man would need no funeral.
He's already dead.
 

simulatedworld

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Going along with the majority has the ability to suffocate 1, 1000, or more than 100,000 opinions.

The majority wears a common suit, made of one opinion.

If we lived in a society where all opinions were suffocated just to "get along," our fellow man would need no funeral.
He's already dead.

I'm not talking about taking away right to free speech or anything like that. You're free to have whatever opinions you like.

I'm just talking about social situations between families and friends involving small interpersonal issues. In these cases it's often more reasonable to set aside your own feelings for the sake of someone else's instead of insist dogmatically on having your way.



That would work great if most Fi-ers actually did give others the same space. I'm sure the healthy ones do, but the rest of them often resort to passive-aggressive guilt tripping while simultaneously insisting that they hate the idea of intruding on anyone else's space.

The advice you guys have given for dealing with my friend would probably work great if he cared about our friendship more than his values, but he doesn't. I lose.
 

Amargith

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I know, and that sucks. It's most likely his fears rather than his values though that make him incapable of working this out with you.

But you have got to stop comparing unhealthy Fi-users with healthy Fe-users. It just..irks people. Immaturity as well as maturity is found in all MBTI species. And there are traits in immature Fe-users that make me wanna strangle them as well at times. Such is life though. And dealing with those people in a proper way and understanding that they are still struggling is actually a sign that you yourself are on your way to being a balanced person yourself ;)

Also, fwiw, it feels like you lose every damned time if you happen to disagree a lot on the social norms. And everyone else who does like the social norm always gets their way. That too tends to create resentment and make people go 'screw it, this aint worth it.'
 

simulatedworld

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I'm still friends with the guy, aren't I?
 

Amargith

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I'm still friends with the guy, aren't I?

*smiles* Yes, and that's great..I'm just trying to give you a way of looking at that friendship that will keep you from feeling like he's handing you the short end of the stick.
 

Jaguar

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I'm just talking about social situations between families and friends involving small interpersonal issues. In these cases it's often more reasonable to set aside your own feelings for the sake of someone else's instead of insist dogmatically on having your way.

Oh, you can actually do that? :thinking:
 
A

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I'm not talking about taking away right to free speech or anything like that. You're free to have whatever opinions you like.

I'm just talking about social situations between families and friends involving small interpersonal issues. In these cases it's often more reasonable to set aside your own feelings for the sake of someone else's instead of insist dogmatically on having your way.
....

^I agree with that 100%. Well said. :hug:
 

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Fi may have the deepest potential for empathy, but it's still going to place its own values above the needs of others whenever the two conflict. What I like about FJs is that they don't do that--others come first for the sake of helping others, which strikes me as genuinely selfless.

From a Fi perspective:

FJs (Fe users) go along with what other people want because they get something out of it...they help others to essentially help themselves. Which is fine, really, if you realise it. In unhealthy (!) Fe users this dynamic becomes very obvious...they want desperately to be needed and affirmed etc. etc. Beyond these things they often have no deep-rooted interest in you. One day you suck because you don't tell them what they want to hear, the next you're amazing because you gave them a compliment. Some of the coldest people I've known are FJs-gone-bad. Sometimes I feel like this going along thing is a way to manipulate you...they give so you would give. I don't think Fi is inherently more selfish than Fe, I do think that it is more subject-oriented than it is object-oriented, which doesn't mean it can't give...it simply does so in a different mode.

I don't think dogmatically going along with what other people want is any more healthy than stubbornly keeping to your own opinions. Sometimes it's constructive to stop and say "hey, this isn't right"*, sometimes it's good to focus on (empathic) support.

It's like Ti and Te really. Fe is the more "pragmatic" function.

*as in possibly with your friend if his behaviour bugs you that much
 

uumlau

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I'm not talking about taking away right to free speech or anything like that. You're free to have whatever opinions you like.
We're free to have whatever feelings we like, too.

I'm just talking about social situations between families and friends involving small interpersonal issues. In these cases it's often more reasonable to set aside your own feelings for the sake of someone else's instead of insist dogmatically on having your way.

Fi does this, mostly in terms of letting others have the space to do things their own way. The difficulty arises wherein an immature [note the specific qualification] Fe wants the Fi users to "be happy." Fi doesn't work that way, especially not an immature Fi.

A mature Fi resolves these issues more by "learning to be happy with almost any situation," as opposed to "setting aside one's feelings." The former is doable, the latter just isn't. (INTJs fake the latter by focusing on Te and suppressing Fi, which is just as bad as letting other people suppress Fi.)


That would work great if most Fi-ers actually did give others the same space. I'm sure the healthy ones do, but the rest of them often resort to passive-aggressive guilt tripping while simultaneously insisting that they hate the idea of intruding on anyone else's space.

The advice you guys have given for dealing with my friend would probably work great if he cared about our friendship more than his values, but he doesn't. I lose.

Not everyone has the same level of maturity in the same ways. That's just how it is. You don't lose anything. If you have the specific problem of a friend who is disrespecting your friendship, and he has strong Fi, the best approach is to ask all these Fi peeps on here how to lead him to a more mature attitude. We probably have some great advice on the topic, if you'd care to take it. Mostly it involves talking to him in Fi/Te terms, which of course is more difficult for you, but it will help you understand how he respects your friendship on his terms and to what degree.

For my part, I had to learn that while a lot of Fe-style gestures mean practically nothing to me, once I realized how much they meant to those other people, I could look at it in an Fi way: "this is what is important to him, and I respect (and maybe love) him, so I should respect his gesture and not treat it with any sort of implied (though unintended and unfelt) contempt." Using Fi, I'm used to respecting others' feelings by "giving them space", but I can expand it for Ti/Fe by respecting their good intentions even when it feels like they want to manipulate me and disrespect me and invade my emotional space.

Flip that around to your Ti point of view, and use that to connect with your friend. In particular, do not imply any sort of contempt for how Fi feels: that will go nowhere. Instead, respect the feeling, and explain how you feel and what you need, feeling-wise. The only rule is, don't tell him how he should feel: that works on you, not him. Tell him how he should "think." To you, as Ti, that would be disrespectful, but to him, as Te, it is useful guidance. Address his Te, and he'll "logically" realize how he should behave around you, rather than emotionally make that realization.
 
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