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  1. #211
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    If we seem narcissistic, we're compensating for the fact that oftentimes, we truly don't know who loves us in this world.
    Does that apply to family members, too? Surely you know that people such as your parents love you?!

  2. #212
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I'm a female ENTP, and I can't relate to that at all. IRL, I am actually the listener more than the talker, in one on one situations, with friends or other loved ones. I'm acutely aware of cues from the others, that they're getting bored, or humouring me, or they have no interest in the subject matter, so, I'll abort going deeper or sharing more. While, it seems, that the other doesn't afford me the same courtesy to be aware that I really don't care that much, because I'll continue to listen and question and respond, to their minute details they share. Because I vibe that they need to get it off their chest.

    I actually don't like talking much about myself, unless asked a direct question, asking me to expand. Some of my closest friends don't even know about certain hobbies, passions of mine - because it just never came up, and I don't see the point of sharing, just because.
    yes, yes, yes, yes.

    As for the narcissistic tendencies, again, I can't relate. I can seemingly come off that way, but, it's all sarcasm and joke, and it's actually really masked self-deprecation, and, I'm "testing" to see if the other falls for such illusions, the smoke and mirrors pitch, or if they smile at it, yet, choose to dig deeper.
    more yeses.

    If you take me seriously at that point, and think I actually believe such bloated statements, I'm going to lose a bit of my closeness with you (respect for?), because you are not trying to see me, just the show I'm putting on for you. I.e., you really just want to be entertained by me.

    There's a truth I'm hinting at, with my seemingly grandoise "narcissistic" statements, and it's not the obvious interpretation.
    nod nod.

    i agree with all of this so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    Does that apply to family members, too? Surely you know that people such as your parents love you?!
    i don't take anything for granted. anything.
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  3. #213
    nevermore lane777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I'm a female ENTP, and I can't relate to that at all. IRL, I am actually the listener more than the talker, in one on one situations, with friends or other loved ones. I'm acutely aware of cues from the others, that they're getting bored, or humouring me, or they have no interest in the subject matter, so, I'll abort going deeper or sharing more. While, it seems, that the other doesn't afford me the same courtesy to be aware that I really don't care that much, because I'll continue to listen and question and respond, to their minute details they share. Because I vibe that they need to get it off their chest.

    I actually don't like talking much about myself, unless asked a direct question, asking me to expand. Some of my closest friends don't even know about certain hobbies, passions of mine - because it just never came up, and I don't see the point of sharing, just because.

    Only one other person do I take on the active "talker" mode with, my ENFJ best friend. Even with my INTJ ex, I was more the listener than him. While in the outside world, he'd be much more quiet.

    As for the narcissistic tendencies, again, I can't relate. I can seemingly come off that way, but, it's all sarcasm and joke, and it's actually really masked self-deprecation, and, I'm "testing" to see if the other falls for such illusions, the smoke and mirrors pitch, or if they smile at it, yet, choose to dig deeper.
    Why test people this way? Why the act?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    When I do something ridiculous and it somehow worked out, I'd often say to my INTJ ex, "I'm fucking awesome!".......I'm actually taking the piss out of myself at that moment, because I also realize how ridiculous it was, and the giddiness of it working out, regardless of the hair-brainedness of it all.

    So, when another time, while we were driving on the highway, the INTJ points out to me, this crazy-looking dude, driving his beat-up old, rusted, hatchback car, with garbage bags piled high at the back of his car, with :546: old headphones on, and a walkman, headbanging away, seemingly oblivious to the world, how he appears....and the INTJ says, "Look, he's awesome, just like you!"

    That's what counts, because the INTJ got it, and I can only smile, and say, "Exactly!"

    If you take me seriously at that point, and think I actually believe such bloated statements, I'm going to lose a bit of my closeness with you (respect for?), because you are not trying to see me, just the show I'm putting on for you. I.e., you really just want to be entertained by me.
    Perhaps, people are taking your perpetual act at face value.

    Eventually, when you keep up the same old joke, people get suspicious (understandably imo). You know how it is, when someone jokingly criticizes you - it's easily forgotten. Unless brought up several more times, you eventually receive it as hinted truth. I had an ENTP friend who was known for his ego. He pissed a lot of people off with his braggery. To anyone that said this to my face, I simply replied that it was only his sense of humor... until I digged deeper, and all I got was more bragging. This is when I started second guessing myself. I'm not saying that his relentless boasting is evidence that he indeed had a bloated self image, but that it's not a very constructive form of humor. Your intended message may seem obvious to you, but it won't always be received correctly. I love sarcasm, but I am careful to choose who I use it with, and how often I use it.

    There's a truth I'm hinting at, with my seemingly grandoise "narcissistic" statements, and it's not the obvious interpretation.

    So, maybe, that's ^ what OMT's quote was getting at?

    We all walk around, and cater our presentation of self, situationally, and, it's understandable, but, funny to me, at the same time. I often see the masses as clowns who don't know that we're clowns. Thus, I push those limits, in regards to myself, often. To see who picks up on it, or who gets sold the lines.
    Again, why the act? Why contribute to the problem (fakeness), when you could set an example and just be real? What are you hoping to accomplish with your strategy?
    To die would be an awfully big adventure - Peter Pan

    INFJ ~ 4w5 sp/sx ~ RLOAI ~ Inclusion e/w=1/0 (Melancholy Compulsive) Control: e/w=0/6 (Supine) Affection: e/w=4/0 (Phlegmatic Melancholy)

  4. #214
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane777 View Post
    Why test people this way? Why the act?

    Again, why the act? Why contribute to the problem (fakeness), when you could set an example and just be real? What are you hoping to accomplish with your strategy?
    If I can quote the famous bard of Avon:

    All the world's a stage,
    And all the men and women merely players:
    They have their exits and their entrances;
    And one man in his time plays many parts,


    Or, like I said in that previous post of mine:
    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    We all walk around, and cater our presentation of self, situationally, and, it's understandable, but, funny to me, at the same time. I often see the masses as clowns who don't know that we're clowns. Thus, I push those limits, in regards to myself, often. To see who picks up on it, or who gets sold the lines.
    I don't believe you, me, or anyone else, is infalliable to the "act". I would even challenge this assertion of what you mean by "being real".

    What is being real?

    Given that I start off assuming that we all have an act, that's navigated by the moment at hand, the situation, to me, playing up the act, is then, in a way, trying to get to the heart of the matter.

    Rather than accept the act as what it is, given the situation, I'm trying to throw it beyond the present situation to get to the essence of them and myself. And, connecting through that.

    It's not faking, nor is it meant to present false sides of me, as that is me, my way, so I'm not being disingenuous.

    There's always an essence of truth in every thing I say, in every "bullshit" I throw out. Either a truth about me, or calling into question a "truth" I see the other presenting, or trying to.

    Perhaps, people are taking your perpetual act at face value.
    Because truth is rarely ever present in only that which is said, often it is there in what is not said, how it is said, why, and a whole gamut of other things surrounding it.

    I hunger to uncover all aspects of a moment. I cannot let something be, as is. I must exhaust all that it is trying to say, to convey.

    Thus, I do take people at face value when it resonates that that's the greatest kernel of truth in the moment, and I can and do present the same to them.

    I mirror people, the world/moment around me, its vibe, a lot.

    And, just like, often people are saying (not saying/keeping hidden) things beyond what they present at face value, so too, do I do it. Except, I make it a game of humour - as I find sarcasm quite funny. And, the fact that this truth is not what is presented at face value, or they're trying to hide it, or if the truth is ridiculous or surprising....I reflect that sentiment by "mocking" it in the way that I do.

    It's not an always one way thing. Depends on the situation, and the person, and our interaction at the time.

    Eventually, when you keep up the same old joke, people get suspicious (understandably imo). You know how it is, when someone jokingly criticizes you - it's easily forgotten. Unless brought up several more times, you eventually receive it as hinted truth. I had an ENTP friend who was known for his ego. He pissed a lot of people off with his braggery. To anyone that said this to my face, I simply replied that it was only his sense of humor... until I digged deeper, and all I got was more bragging. This is when I started second guessing myself. I'm not saying that his relentless boasting is evidence that he indeed had a bloated self image, but that it's not a very constructive form of humor. Your intended message may seem obvious to you, but it won't always be received correctly. I love sarcasm, but I am careful to choose who I use it with, and how often I use it.
    True, in this way, it helps me weed out those that will and do get me, see beyond, and those who do not. I do this with close interpersonal relationships as it's very important for me that they see beyond, they want to see beyond. Others, I don't bother with this, as I don't really care.

    I often find that those who do catch on to this side of me, they're less vested in some interest of theirs in me, and there's more of a genuine interest to get to know me (shedding of their own preconceived notions and expectations), rather than whatever personal motivations they have, that I may somehow tie into. Like, finding me entertaining so I'm an entertainment for them, thus, they really don't care to know if there's anything beyond. Either I entertain them, or exasperate them. And, that's all the story they care to know.

    Oh, and that ENTP friend of yours, I can't comment, as I can't relate to it at all. If someone is genuine in wanting to dig deeper, and they don't steam-roll it onto me, but show honest curiosity, wanting to learn, I'm actually quite eager and excited to go exploring with them. My Ne is tantalized by such things, and never really turns it down.

  5. #215
    Senior Member Cypocalypse's Avatar
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    Is there a big dispcrepancy between an INFJ and an ENFJ?

    I have one really close ENFJ friend (most of what I can triangulate about INFJs come from her, really, since the one INFJ girl I know, I don't know much).

    About feeling neglected by an ENTP...

    Compared to the sophistication of an ENFJ's social life and an ENTP's various line of interest, I think that if I'd ever be with an ENFJ, I'd feel neglected. Really.

    Would there be complete turnaround if the girl's an INFJ instead? Just wondering.

  6. #216
    nevermore lane777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    If I can quote the famous bard of Avon:

    All the world's a stage,
    And all the men and women merely players:
    They have their exits and their entrances;
    And one man in his time plays many parts,


    Or, like I said in that previous post of mine:

    I don't believe you, me, or anyone else, is infalliable to the "act". I would even challenge this assertion of what you mean by "being real".

    What is being real?
    Being real imo, is behavior which comes natural to you - the path of least resistance. Although, after investing years into wearing a mask, I do imagine you or anyone else who does so would become very accustomed to it, and it would appear natural. You would forget it was an act. But I wasn't referring to that kind of scenario - where you're unaware that you're acting. I was referring to your support of the intentional act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Given that I start off assuming that we all have an act, that's navigated by the moment at hand, the situation, to me, playing up the act, is then, in a way, trying to get to the heart of the matter.

    Rather than accept the act as what it is, given the situation, I'm trying to throw it beyond the present situation to get to the essence of them and myself. And, connecting through that.

    It's not faking, nor is it meant to present false sides of me, as that is me, my way, so I'm not being disingenuous.
    That seems like a dangerous perspective. In defense, a liar could argue, "I lie, because it's who I am." That's just how you're coming across to me, and how you may be coming across to many people - which I only bring up for the sake of interest.

    Since you say that's who you are, I can't argue one way or another. I don't know you.

    Thanks for sharing your perspective Qre:us.
    To die would be an awfully big adventure - Peter Pan

    INFJ ~ 4w5 sp/sx ~ RLOAI ~ Inclusion e/w=1/0 (Melancholy Compulsive) Control: e/w=0/6 (Supine) Affection: e/w=4/0 (Phlegmatic Melancholy)

  7. #217
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane777 View Post
    Being real imo, is behavior which comes natural to you - the path of least resistance. Although, after investing years into wearing a mask, I do imagine you or anyone else who does so would become very accustomed to it, and it would appear natural. You would forget it was an act. But I wasn't referring to that kind of scenario - where you're unaware that you're acting. I was referring to your support of the intentional act.
    So, you mean you always act in one natural way, with say, teachers, business associates, close friends, different family members, a child versus an adult, strangers, in all situations, one and the same?

    One monotone of behaviour? ___________________

    I have a hard time believing that, from anyone. Believing that there's no intent to action with different people and situations.

    E.g.,
    - with my best friend, I'm going to act extra silly.
    - with my mother, I'm going to show the vulnerable side of me, to gain her motherly comfort.
    - with my teacher, I'm going to act confident.
    etc...etc....


    So, for me, I intentionally act extra superfluous in confidence in certain situations, and with certain people, to prove a point (outlined previously).

    That seems like a dangerous perspective. In defense, a liar could argue, "I lie, because it's who I am." That's just how you're coming across to me, and how you may be coming across to many people - which I only bring up for the sake of interest.
    No. I can't see the relevance of that analogy.

    "I act out, because I'm calling the current act a farce," would be more appropriate of what I do. Or, "I "lie" even more grandly, to point out/mock the hypocrisy, the lie, of the current state."

    As I said in the previous post, I mirror a lot, so if there's serious, honest discussion, so am I the same way. If something ridiculous happened, so too am I ridiculous. Etc...

    When something, at face value, isn't resonating as truth with me, that's when my "act" comes out. To test the situation, to poke at it to get to the heart of the matter. As well, for amusement, to mock, me, it, the other, the whole situation.

    I think we're having a disconnect in how I'm explaining what I do, and what you're interpreting such things to be/mean.

    Thanks for sharing your perspective Qre:us.
    No problem.

  8. #218
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qreus
    As for the narcissistic tendencies, again, I can't relate. I can seemingly come off that way, but, it's all sarcasm and joke, and it's actually really masked self-deprecation, and, I'm "testing" to see if the other falls for such illusions, the smoke and mirrors pitch, or if they smile at it, yet, choose to dig deeper.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qreus
    We all walk around, and cater our presentation of self, situationally, and, it's understandable, but, funny to me, at the same time. I often see the masses as clowns who don't know that we're clowns. Thus, I push those limits, in regards to myself, often. To see who picks up on it, or who gets sold the lines.
    Quote Originally Posted by lane777 View Post

    Again, why the act? Why contribute to the problem (fakeness), when you could set an example and just be real? What are you hoping to accomplish with your strategy?
    I guess I don't view Qreus' descriptions as being 'fake' per se. I understand the piece about 'testing' people, because although I may not do it in the exact same manner, I think I do my own version of testing, especially when it comes to *really* letting people into my life.

    I also really relate/agree with the piece Qreus bolded; I, too, adjust my communication style based on who I am speaking with -- it's my understanding that that's a pretty basic component of Fe, actually. Adjusting communication/approach such that you're able to connect with another person, at their level. I've posted many times on here though that while I do do that, I don't view it as 'fake' in the least, as I don't view my communication style as being deeply tied to who *I* am. My thoughts/content is always the same, but my mode of delivery can be more fluid - and I don't see the mode of delivery being fluid being tied to fakeness. But, that's just me.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  9. #219
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Thanks much for your thoughts here. I guess I just thought Fe would sort of quell this?? I mean I dunno, for Fi, if you stop and listen to it, you cant not feel the SO's pain. Doesnt mean Fi users always stop and listen.

    I dont mean to judge her. Well you know, that's not so true, I do judge her and he, due to harm to the SO, but it isnt my place to impose those judgments on others externally. (Might as well be honest to the ol' Fi)

    perhaps she is lonely as well. She really wants kids and a family. I dunno...
    Many INFJs partake in extramarital affairs or open relationships all the time, despite their Fe. Jung himself had many relationships with other women even though he was married and his wife knew, but didn't necessarily approve or like it. (i read he even had one of his intimate colleagues over for dinner every sunday!) Sometimes I do think it is related to immaturity if another spouse is involved (on the other end). Most INFJs that I know of who have extra lovers are in a relationship themselves (with some 'understanding') and see single people.


    I see how Q is as just quintessential Ne at work. Improvisation to get at all angles of the truth all the time.

    I personally have found I prefer Ne to be preceeded by Ti. Or buffered a bit by Ni, which one or two entps on here have.
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  10. #220
    nevermore lane777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    So, you mean you always act in one natural way, with say, teachers, business associates, close friends, different family members, a child versus an adult, strangers, in all situations, one and the same?
    One monotone of behaviour? ___________________
    I have a hard time believing that, from anyone. Believing that there's no intent to action with different people and situations.
    Yes, different social groups draw out different sides of me, but it is subtle, and is always natural/comfortable for me. And yes, out of desperation and without forethought (additionally, never an advocate for such behavior), I have intentionally put on an act at one stage in my life, but it was emotionally exhausting, so I crapped out very quickly. However, after putting more thought into it, I suppose because your temperament is a natural performer, acting like you do would not be so exhausting for you as it would be for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    E.g.,
    - with my best friend, I'm going to act extra silly.
    - with my mother, I'm going to show the vulnerable side of me, to gain her motherly comfort.
    - with my teacher, I'm going to act confident.
    etc...etc....
    The point you made about your mother... I would go to my mother for personal problems because I trust her wisdom and confidentiality. Furthermore, I would be confident that she would invest genuine concern in my affairs. I would call this being sensible; why go to another source lesser than? Or why 'throw pearls to pigs?' Keeping certain aspects of yourself private, is not what I consider being fake (one reason being that it's not emotionally exhausting to do so). Use the same concept on your other two examples: why show aspects of yourself to someone who will not understand/appreciate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    So, for me, I intentionally act extra superfluous in confidence in certain situations, and with certain people, to prove a point (outlined previously).
    No. I can't see the relevance of that analogy.
    "I act out, because I'm calling the current act a farce," would be more appropriate of what I do. Or, "I "lie" even more grandly, to point out/mock the hypocrisy, the lie, of the current state."
    As I said in the previous post, I mirror a lot, so if there's serious, honest discussion, so am I the same way. If something ridiculous happened, so too am I ridiculous. Etc...
    When something, at face value, isn't resonating as truth with me, that's when my "act" comes out. To test the situation, to poke at it to get to the heart of the matter. As well, for amusement, to mock, me, it, the other, the whole situation.
    I think we're having a disconnect in how I'm explaining what I do, and what you're interpreting such things to be/mean.

    No problem.
    Perhaps you could give me a real example?
    Last edited by lane777; 03-10-2010 at 11:36 PM.
    To die would be an awfully big adventure - Peter Pan

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