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  1. #121
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramis View Post
    Hmm, I can see a vicious cycle between an immature ENTP and INFJ would emerge from that kind of situation. One would constantly try to connect through various medium, and the other would back off more and more due to the perceived "insecurity." I've seen that dynamic play out between many other types, but especially with preference combinations so diametrically opposed.

    I can see why you'd say it would feel like infidelity. Maybe, it's not worth being in a relationship with someone you cannot open up to, or with. That's not a "relationship" then, as defined by your realistic needs.
    i can open up with damn near anyone. the issue is more so that i need to make sure i get good, healthy, nutritious feeling to supply me with positivity. feeling creates inspiration, which is what makes me merge with the world. i find it in emotional expression, communication, context, drama, etc. watching it flow through the world, hearing it everywhere and in everything, etc.

    i believe i am better when i am more open. it is a state of my own being more so than it is purely a contingent mode of relationship. but perhaps it must be a slow and gradual process, and i must be more aware of my own limitations and adjust my expectations in the moment more constructively.

    i am not sure where this goes from here. i get pretty fucking excited whenever i hang out with entps and the ideas start flowing. it is a need that is equal to my need for feeling, but does something wholly different for me.

  2. #122
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Your line of reasoning makes much more sense to me and has been borne out in what I've observed with other couples. I have learned to avoid getting close to people of the opposite sex who are not good potential partners or avoid getting close to people of the opposite sex when I am in a relationship (or when they are).
    i agree with this very much. but i fucking hate it. it makes me feel as if i must put so much pressure on my relationship to satisfy my whole experience of femininity. i need to connect with new people and understand them deeply. it is my greatest source of inspiration. how is this a tenable conflict?

  3. #123
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i agree with this very much. but i fucking hate it. it makes me feel as if i must put so much pressure on my relationship to satisfy my whole experience of femininity. i need to connect with new people and understand them deeply. it is my greatest source of inspiration. how is this a tenable conflict?
    Just be aware how people can respond to this attention and connection. Not everyone is able to connect with people just to get what they want. Often they connect and feel something they feel with very few. So, there is a bit of responsibility there. I think the INFJ's can underestimate the response from others. Others who might assume that they are special.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  4. #124
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Just be aware how people can respond to this attention and connection. Not everyone is able to connect with people just to get what they want. Often they connect and feel something they feel with very few. So, there is a bit of responsibility there. I think the INFJ's can underestimate the response from others. Others who might assume that they are special.
    you are saying that infjs can be just as guilty as enfps when it comes to getting in close and creating an impression of intense focus and then not living up to the expectations they have created for the relationship within the other person?

  5. #125
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Right. At the end of the day we are designed to become close to people of the opposite sex. This is the powerful biological magic that perpetuates our species. To think we have total control over this fails to recognize the true power of attraction. You are setting yourself up to fail.

    It has the potential to overwhelm all reason, propriety, and concern for anything else. This is the duality of Romance. It has the power to create and destroy. It is elemental. Why else do we compare romantic love to fire? Fire excites and warms but the same fire can maim and destroy.

    As an example, everyone should see "Damage". I believe it's on Netflix streaming.
    Do you think it works that way in all MF friendships? I would guess that in most of the MF friendships I've had that have worked, the guy was open/mildly interested in me, but had tacitly accepted that the feeling wasn't mutual and they were not actively trying to make anything happen. I have realized from busking that no amount of age difference, marital status, ugliness etc means that men will automatically assume they are out of the running. I have been friends with married couples and been careful to make sure the friendship is more geared towards the woman even when we socialize together. Even this can still be a problem though. I have chosen with most of my formerly closer male friends to only sporadically stay in touch and to make sure that I mention their wife/family and that I would be fine with her reading anything I wrote so that my intentions are clear. It seems to work alright. In the past though I have underestimated the power of mental attraction/male interest/physical proximity to overpower good reason regarding an unwise or incompatible choice of SO.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    you are saying that infjs can be just as guilty as enfps when it comes to getting in close and creating an impression of intense focus and then not living up to the expectations they have created for the relationship within the other person?
    Not exactly. I think they sometimes fail to anticipate the messages they inadvertently send. They make assumptions based on their own point of view without being able to see how different this might be from someone else. They can often seem just a touch naive when it comes to the mundane realities of human interaction.

    ENFP's are a bit less dangerous in a way because they telegraph their flakiness and inconstancy.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Do you think it works that way in all MF friendships? I would guess that in most of the MF friendships I've had that have worked, the guy was open/mildly interested in me, but had tacitly accepted that the feeling wasn't mutual and they were not actively trying to make anything happen. I have realized from busking that no amount of age difference, marital status, ugliness etc means that men will automatically assume they are out of the running. I have been friends with married couples and been careful to make sure the friendship is more geared towards the woman even when we socialize together. Even this can still be a problem though. I have chosen with most of my formerly closer male friends to only sporadically stay in touch and to make sure that I mention their wife/family and that I would be fine with her reading anything I wrote so that my intentions are clear. It seems to work alright. In the past though I have underestimated the power of mental attraction/male interest/physical proximity to overpower good reason regarding an unwise or incompatible choice of SO.
    There are different forms of closeness between a man and a woman. Certainly I could be friends with someone unattractive to me or to someone who I saw as a "sister".

    But, if there is sexual attraction how can there really be friendship? Really consider that.

    Do you see how difficult that is? Respecting the relationship while feeling a pull. I don't see how it could work if there is attraction. So, necessarily, as you see in couples who are friends. The male and female constituents tend to maintain a sort of distance.

    Friendship is a particular type of relationship. It presumes nothing more than an equal footing and understanding. A mutualism. Sexual desire is covetous. Jealous. Consuming. Seductive.

    This may be an area where women have an advantage as they may be able to separate. But for myself, I do not think I could be close friends with a woman I was attracted to. It would be very dishonest to pretend I could be. You know?
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  8. #128
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yep. I think I've only run into trouble with the odd person I wasn't initially attracted to physically, but who pursued me (so there was an attraction on their part) and whom I spent time with regularly and found mentally stimulating. I just ended up developing a return attraction. With those that I did not find appealing mentally/personality wise in a potential romantic way, we remained friends. When I was interested in someone who wasn't interested in me, we drifted apart (they have no reason to stay in a friendship where they don't feel attraction and there wasn't time enough to develop a more familial kind of friendship).

  9. #129
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yep. I think I've only run into trouble with the odd person I wasn't initially attracted to physically, but who pursued me (so there was an attraction on their part) and whom I spent time with regularly and found mentally stimulating. I just ended up developing a return attraction. With those that I did not find appealing mentally/personality wise in a potential romantic way, we remained friends. When I was interested in someone who wasn't interested in me, we drifted apart (they have no reason to stay in a friendship where they don't feel attraction and there wasn't time enough to develop a more familial kind of friendship).
    Women seem more likely go around making friends with men than the reverse. I am not sure why this is. Perhaps the female need for emotional closeness is an analogue to male sexual desire? I find it very puzzling as it seems sometimes a bit emotionally promiscuous.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  10. #130
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Not exactly. I think they sometimes fail to anticipate the messages they inadvertently send. They make assumptions based on their own point of view without being able to see how different this might be from someone else. They can often seem just a touch naive when it comes to the mundane realities of human interaction.

    ENFP's are a bit less dangerous in a way because they telegraph their flakiness and inconstancy.
    suggesting that infjs can lack an awareness of social cues and signals that define boundaries and outline intentions? and without spending serious effort and energy maintaining a healthy and accurate portrayal of the situation through these forms of communication, they can lead people on?

    as far as a more far-reaching critique of values, this moves towards infjs needing to be more self-sufficient and less dangerously anais-nin like (assuming we did in fact type her as an infj?) or deriving too much of their identity in their ability to explore others without serious investment?

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