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  1. #31
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
    I can't read ENFJ well and that's what I like! I can tell there's a lot there; it's all coded to ENFP. sometimes I feel like the ENFJ must have a motive or expectation assigned to an ENFP for a reason that they want to know the person. A solid ENFP's intentions are pure! I swear!

    I just see ENFP and ENFJ as each other's strongest motivators. I think it's awesome.
    I love to vibe off of ENFPs. It's like they give ENFJs the various perspectives (and not so Fe perspective) they may need, while ENFJs can give the encouragement or J-directive that the ENFP may need.

    When i read of ENFP-ENFJ mismatches, it makes me think they didn't figure out how to play off each other's eccentricity. For me, it's very light and indirectly-direct until it needs to be direct.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's a little hard, sometimes one or the other is uptight, and you're afraid of totally knifing them with a jab you'd normally reserve for your T friends.
    Love is the point.

  3. #33
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Any of my fellow ENFJs feel like a Gordita Crunch whenever you read the title of this thread?
    Love is the point.

  4. #34
    Senior Member toast's Avatar
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    I'm just going to chime in & emphasize one point almost everyone has brought up: be interested, let it show.

    This is definitely an issue that stands out for me. I almost have a compulsion to start talking about myself once someone actually wants to know (and I can tell that its genuine). It usually starts with little things, like small life experiences, opinions & judgments. If, through this point, you are giving off external signs that you value my memories / feelings, I will keep going. Once I get to my favorite cat getting hit by my neighbor, and your eyes are wandering. SLAM! We'll start talking about you, and you'll never get anything more from my internal world until things change.

    This is far more frustrating for me than it is for the person trying to know, I'm sure. Its annoying that most people seem to be completely uninterested in truly understanding someone else, and I don't like that cut off in my thoughts & motivations that precedes me turning the conversation back to you when I'm semi-vulnerable.

    To me, and this may be somewhat childish, my inner world is precious. It is not necessarily loved by me and it can be quite dark, but its alone with me. For some reason, I've always protected it. So... it must be special right? If someone else doesn't find it special its most insulting. I either question what I was protecting or I think that person doesn't deserve access to it.

    And I don't think anyone asking "how to get through ENFJ layers" has any dark motive. But I do want to say that I have never been 'tricked' by anyone into divulging something that was later used against me. I can tell what you want the information for & how well you'll remember it, usually well before I say anything important. I've actually used this to build relationships with people who wanted to get closer but for reasons of insecurity & not necessarily genuine connection. With these people, I can sometimes find a way to tell them about myself in a way that assures they won't really retain the details, but they'll know we've connected.
    ____________________________________________
    "In my soul rages a battle without victor. Between faith without proof and reason without charm." - Sully Prudhomme

  5. #35
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
    I can't read ENFJ well and that's what I like! I can tell there's a lot there; it's all coded to ENFP. sometimes I feel like the ENFJ must have a motive or expectation assigned to an ENFP for a reason that they want to know the person. A solid ENFP's intentions are pure! I swear!

    I just see ENFP and ENFJ as each other's strongest motivators. I think it's awesome.
    Oh sorry for misinterpreting that and for coming off abrasive. School has just been stressful for the past month...had no idea what was I was supposed to learn for a month because of a sub and then he got injured. We ended up getting twice as much work.

    I have the hardest time reading ENFPs as well. They are "good" crazy.

  6. #36
    Member Ethelred the Unready's Avatar
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    I can only second what most ENFJ's have said. Getting under all those layers isn't easy and it takes time - at least in my case.

    I must feel that the other person is genuinely interested in getting to know the real me. Also I must trust this person. I've been hurt before and I do get hurt very easily by what people say (I know, that's one of the most irritating ENFJ's traits ). Therefore I have to be sure the other person won't hurt me, won't laugh at my weird inner life and won't gossip about it to others.

    And even then it's not the case of getting straight through to my inner core. My layers peel away slowly and one at a time. And my radar is fine tuned to the other person's reactions. If I sense they starting to think I'm weird or that they could possibly turn my words against me - I quickly withdraw, close off and turn everything into a joke. And that's it. The end. After that this person can attack my layers with an axe but won't go anywhere. My layers can really harden into concrete.

    I sometimes think I resemble a Japanese sword - harder outer jacket of steel wrapped around a softer inner core of steel.
    We could learn a lot from crayons. Some are sharp, some are pretty and some are dull; some have weird names and all are different colours, but they all have to live in the same box.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Neutralpov's Avatar
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    I think in relation to ENFP we appear less open because of the emphasis on emotional connection. I also love ENFPs but the tendency for some I have met to dive headlong into anything resembling an emotional connection without being rational per say about it makes me leery. But in relation to other MBTI types we are ridiculously open. I know with those who I trust I am an open book except for the things I don't even see coming or if I am not in tune with my feelings. Then it can surprise people because it hits me in an aha moment.

  8. #38
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    If, through this point, you are giving off external signs that you value my memories / feelings, I will keep going. Once I get to my favorite cat getting hit by my neighbor, and your eyes are wandering. SLAM! We'll start talking about you, and you'll never get anything more from my internal world until things change.

    This is far more frustrating for me than it is for the person trying to know, I'm sure. Its annoying that most people seem to be completely uninterested in truly understanding someone else, and I don't like that cut off in my thoughts & motivations that precedes me turning the conversation back to you when I'm semi-vulnerable.

    To me, and this may be somewhat childish, my inner world is precious. It is not necessarily loved by me and it can be quite dark, but its alone with me. For some reason, I've always protected it. So... it must be special right? If someone else doesn't find it special its most insulting. I either question what I was protecting or I think that person doesn't deserve access to it.

    And I don't think anyone asking "how to get through ENFJ layers" has any dark motive. But I do want to say that I have never been 'tricked' by anyone into divulging something that was later used against me. I can tell what you want the information for & how well you'll remember it, usually well before I say anything important. I've actually used this to build relationships with people who wanted to get closer but for reasons of insecurity & not necessarily genuine connection. With these people, I can sometimes find a way to tell them about myself in a way that assures they won't really retain the details, but they'll know we've connected.
    respectfully, i have to disagree that this is more frustrating for you guys than for others

    i absolutely acknowledge that ENFJs are extraordinary readers of people, but you guys are also very hard to get to know, perhaps more so than is necessarily warranted. when i was first getting to know my good ENFJ friend - and even still sometimes, when it's a complex or sensitive issue we're discussing - i feel that i have to be extraordinarily careful about what i say and how i say it, or i get closed out. much of the time i do not understand why - i think it is quite obvious to you guys why you're doing this, but to me, it seems confusing and sometimes hurtful. for myself, and i do believe with most NFPs, there is an underlying assumption that whenever someone opens up, it is special and to be respected and listened to - in fact, i find people more and more interesting the more they open up. with a good friend it is even more fascinating and endearing.

    but, when she suddenly shuts me out, there must be something that my ENFJ friend reads into me that i don't know is there. lately i've been wondering if maybe it is that she is reading that i don't know that i am supposed to hold this information in strictest confidence - it's very rare that i would tend to share anyone's private inner information, but to be fair i also am not always listening with the pointed intention to not disclose the information either. it's actually kind of fascinating to me, toast, that you're so aware of how people intend to use the information you share... i don't think of protecting myself in that light (instead, i tend to read Fi cues to know if a person is "safe" to share with or not).

    my point being not that ENFJs are all overly cautious, but that i think in being so hypervigilant you run the risk of prematurely cutting others out, when there are means of bridging the gap between you (for instance, affirming with the other person that they know this is very special, private information that is not shared with just anyone). it may be frustrating to you that many people seem uninterested in really understanding you, but the ENFJs i know also seem to require extraordinary amounts of effort to get to know in a deep capacity... in a lot of ways you guys seem to push people away on a deep level while connecting warmly on a friendly social level.

    though, the fact that you make yourselves so warm and charismatic and yet so icy and mysterious is what makes you so interesting to me

    all of this said, what are some ways other types can make you feel safe and like we are interested in you? from experience, i know asking questions to clarify, encouraging the other person to talk about themself in conversation (i know this seems very obvious to you guys, but it seems strange to me... if i'm taking the time to talk with you then of course i want you to share...), paying attention to what is important to you and using that information to help you later (eg a very personalized bday gift), keeping eye contact with you, and keeping your information very private but speaking positively about you to others. what else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh
    Quote Originally Posted by pyramid
    I can't read ENFJ well and that's what I like! I can tell there's a lot there; it's all coded to ENFP. [...]
    [...] I have the hardest time reading ENFPs as well. They are "good" crazy.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venom View Post
    I kind of put "little things out there" to see how people react before putting weirder more personal stuff out. If you dont react well to the little stuff, then theres pretty much no chance I'm ever going to reveal my weirder and more personal stuff. Your loss :steam:
    I agree with this. I've once told my friend that we're like cats. We will open a little, see how you react, whether you're safe to be near, whether you reciprocate/show that you want to know us, and then run away, so there's this sort of tango.. until we're fully sure by your actions (actions means a lot to us! if you keep loving us, we can't refuse u), then we'd become like the kitten which you can never get rid of :P
    trust is <b>very</b> important to us.

  10. #40
    Senior Member ExAstrisSpes's Avatar
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    I haven't really seen this point brought up, so here it is. It's not enough to just show interest, you have to have the right intent also. If I get a whiff that someone is just trying to "get to know me better" for more than the sake of the friendship, then I close off pretty quickly and throw up some Fe smoke in defense.

    On the other hand, I'm honestly surprised that people would think I'm hard to read. I think I'm notoriously easy to read and get to know; I'm pretty liberal with talking about my hobbies, and feel somewhat "naked" emotionally. (I can attest I have no military 'bearing').

    I will agree that simply loving us and being emotionally present makes it really, really difficult to refuse you. We definitely pick up when someone loves us for us, even if you may not know us very well. And that makes it feel safe to open up.

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