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  1. #31
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    pyramid I have a question for you:

    What do you mean when you say you're "weird" and can you give me some examples of your weirdness?

    Also do you mind me asking how old you are?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #32
    Senior Member pyramid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    pyramid I have a question for you:

    What do you mean when you say you're "weird" and can you give me some examples of your weirdness?

    Also do you mind me asking how old you are?
    I have always been my own person completely unfazed by whether it was deemed acceptable by others or not (in my older years I combine this also with what will be most affecting to my audience). I really like the idea that what is right is right even if no one is doing it and what is wrong is wrong even if everybody is doing it.

    I was definitely into rebellious subcultures growing up -- I like things for their uniqueness and novelty, even if other people consider it a tragedy or abomination or depressing.

    I have socially challenging interests and loud ideas. To think and live in the future is "abnormal" to a good deal of people.

    I don't thrive on being weird, but I definitely have never conformed to the American, suburbanite, Christian White Man's World I grew up in.

    I am 23 (public info, take a look at my profile for some supporting images ). I suppose there isn't a lot of direct evidence here so let me say I am a big fan of body modification, cacophonous sound, and Robert Crumb's Weirdo comics

  3. #33
    Senior Member pyramid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFlame View Post
    Wow, I'm glad I'm not the only one who has a mom like that! I don't know anyone IRL who really knows what it's like to be held hostage by your own mother (Actually, now that I think about it, my SO and one of my close friends have dealt with a high level of emotional manipulation from their ESFJ mothers, but it's a lot different, so I don't really relate to it.)! She leans more to the P side of life, so Fe isn't really her thing, but money-wise, my god. She really did create a world of financial dependence for my brother and I. Partially because that's just how she shows her love, but also because it's how she exerts control. I was married with children and she was STILL paying my college tuition, rent, cell phone bill and god knows what else....and using it to keep me in line because *whoever has the gold makes the rules.* She was actually going to attempt to MAKE me go to medical school and withdraw support if I refused.
    So, I let her. Best thing I've ever done. I needed to make my own path in life, even if that meant being poor for a while.

    I still accept gifts, though. She can't take those back.

    The fluid-like relationship you have suggests to me that she's also an N, not an ESFJ.
    yeah she was graciously helping me out with medical expenses and supplementing my rent when I didn't have it all because I couldn't work, though we made agreements like she could still claim me on taxes to get that $$ back, etc. She was helping with $ out of my college fund I assured her I wouldn't be using

    then one day she decided she was done helping and that I don't really have an illness, etc etc

    she gave me fair warning about cutting me off financially but it was then that I realized this is the only way she's ever going to be able to cut the mental umbilical cord. we later got in a fight and she threatened to turn off all sources of help, which I encouraged her to do. While she's still providing it she can still feel responsible for all of my actions.

    gifts --- I can't even tell what is the difference between gift and what she feels is motherly duty and what she's using to manipulate me. I would receive gifts and then later be blackmailed with guilt by a demand of hers that she would weigh with the gift. My god I have really high anxiety about money after all that. I wouldn't let anyone pay for me forever and I remember to the exact f***ing penny how much I owe someone. I shudder to think of a relationship of mine being destroyed by financial conflict.


    How is your relationship after all this, BlueFlame?

  4. #34
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
    To think and live in the future is "abnormal" to a good deal of people.
    When I have more time I will explain to you about "ants vs grasshoppers" and people with high personal discount rates vs low personal discount rates.

    ENFPs definitely fall into "grasshoppers" with high personal discount rates. This is why ENFPs can be "not very conservative" even if they are the most "texan republican" on the planet...

  5. #35
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    When I have more time I will explain to you about "ants vs grasshoppers" and people with high personal discount rates vs low personal discount rates.

    ENFPs definitely fall into "grasshoppers" with high personal discount rates. This is why ENFPs can be "not very conservative" even if they are the most "texan republican" on the planet...
    okay so pyramid.

    There is a fable about the grasshopper and the ants (here are the cliff notes)
    --the ants spend all of the summer working hard, stock piling food, building out their underground shelter and not really goofing off that much.
    --the grasshoppers enjoy the summer, but at the expense of stock piling any food and building any shelter
    --winter comes, and the grasshoppers freeze to death/starve to death. The ants however, are able to survive in their underground shelter with plenty of food stockpiled

    moral of the story: living day by day can leave you with no shelter and no stock pile when that cold rainy day finally comes. (Ants = ISTJ, grasshoppers = ENFP )

    So why did the grasshoppers not value their future as much as the ants did? Discount rates. A growth rate is what compounds a value going forward in time (ie growth rate of y would compound this present day value over 5 years into this Future Value). A discount rate is what "shrinks" a future value back in time over some years, back to its present day value.
    --a high discount rate might mean that you shrink the Future Value so much that its Present Value is nill.
    --a low discount rate might mean that you shrink the Future Value so little that its Present Value is still quite high.
    --Therefore, high discount rate people live in the present, with less concern for their future
    --The low discount rate people live in the future, with more concern for their future

    So to bring everything together, the Ants have a low personal discount rate and look after their future. The grasshoppers have a high personal discount rate and look after their present.
    --when the rain comes, the future oriented stock pilers often come out on top
    --rain does come
    --this is why people get mad at/think fools of the present oriented ENFPs

    The End.

  6. #36
    That's my name biotch! JoSunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyramid View Post


    wow this is IT! I see investing this energy into the manipulation when it could go into being the amazing person that she is.
    Yes, it was really hard to watch. It was even harder to hold my tongue about what was happening. It literally makes me sooooo sad thinking about it. Her kids were deeply effected by her behavior, very insecure and manipulative - mamma taught them well. It was a big dysfunctional stew and everyone involved was deeply hurt and damaged from it. The thing is - they are all really well-intentioned people who didn't mean to be hurtful, they were just so afraid of being hurt and loosing control that they stepped all over other people (including each other) as a way of defending their fragile egos and emotions.

    Lucky for you, you sound like you are far more independant and confident than this woman's children. I think cutting the strings and not accepting financial support or extravagant gifts is a good start. I know it can be scary, but you will probably need to be pretty verbal about things with her, "Thank you for the offer, Mom, but it is important to me that I do this on my own." "I always appreciate your advice, but I am going to do things my way." This will probably be pretty hard for your Mom and you will most likely get a lot of push back becuase it sounds like she has a strong need to be needed. She will probably question, attack and belittle your choices trying to regain some control over you and dependance from you. It will probably help if you spend quite a bit of time reassuring her and telling her that you love and care about her. Maybe even encourage her to pursue some of her own interests so she has someplace to expend energy and feel needed elsewhere. Just know that even though how she is behaving seems quite contrary to this...she is probably afraid of loosing you (and control over you) when it comes right down to it.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. " - Dr. Seuss
    I can't spell...get over it

    Slightly ENFJ, totally JoSunshine
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  7. #37
    Senior Member pyramid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    okay so pyramid.

    The End.
    The subects of your analogy seem mutually exclusive. Humans are based on interdependence. However, I am aware of the moralistic end to this fable. I guess this implies ENFP are the ant's opposite. Well it is much harder to discover your ant-like duty when you have a mind of a grasshopper and are not a drone! The grasshopper too has a purpose or it would not exisist.

    Of course a balanced ENFP is present-oriented. That's where the body lives. I am me. And I have a body. If I want to continue being me I will do what is best for my body.

    so what is the ENFP deficiency here? Pragmatism? Direct realism? Obviously. Is this an admonition or what? Not all ENFP are idle daydreamers that live paycheck to paycheck expecting others to labor for them. I'm sure many of them are percieved to start off this way though, or clumsily act out their immature fate. All types achieve balance. You have a lot to say for the traits of underdeveloped ENFP!

    There is less partying going on and more mental exercise than you might see from the outside.

    If I live in the present due to my discount rate, that means to me that my work is mostly directly affecting & alters the present more than the future. I will agree with that fact. My actions are precisely designed to be most effective Right Now. (Right Now is a ray of the future-present. From present to everything forward of that infinitely.) I could never achieve my effectiveness if I didn't concern myself with the idea that my direct actions are what is best and most resounding for the future. Very sustainable.

    I mostly identify with "me" over my body (due to my functions) and "I" live in the future. The collective me is everywhere and nowhere at once.

  8. #38
    Senior Member BlueFlame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
    yeah she was graciously helping me out with medical expenses and supplementing my rent when I didn't have it all because I couldn't work, though we made agreements like she could still claim me on taxes to get that $$ back, etc. She was helping with $ out of my college fund I assured her I wouldn't be using

    then one day she decided she was done helping and that I don't really have an illness, etc etc
    Sigh...
    Well, it sounds like it was just one of those *I'm done helping you until you help yourself* moments. I don't know if it's just supposed to be some sort of tough love or she just ran out of steam, but it's sad either way.

    she gave me fair warning about cutting me off financially but it was then that I realized this is the only way she's ever going to be able to cut the mental umbilical cord. we later got in a fight and she threatened to turn off all sources of help, which I encouraged her to do. While she's still providing it she can still feel responsible for all of my actions.
    That's really interesting coming from the other side of the coin. When all of that happened, how did she seem to be feeling? Resigned, angry, detached, calm?

    I guess it really would be her feeling responsible for you, considering she's the ENFJ. Coming from my situation, I always felt responsible for my mother and her decisions and emotions, and she had no problem leaning on me from the time I was about 8, and she discovered the *wonders* of my Ni.
    In 2008 I cut off contact with her for about 7 months for that exact reason. I just couldn't do it anymore. She would lean on me and come to me for advice and we would literally spend hours coming up with solutions and working through things, then, in the end, she would throw it all away and live in the destructive moment. And I think that's a sort of extreme example of what BC was talking about. There's nothing wrong with being what the very essence of an ENFP is, it's just frustrating for others to watch when it's in a negative light...especially when you're dealing with someone like an ENFJ. Not saying you're on the path of destruction or anything, but that could be how your mom sees it.

    [/quote]gifts --- I can't even tell what is the difference between gift and what she feels is motherly duty and what she's using to manipulate me. I would receive gifts and then later be blackmailed with guilt by a demand of hers that she would weigh with the gift. My god I have really high anxiety about money after all that. I wouldn't let anyone pay for me forever and I remember to the exact f***ing penny how much I owe someone. I shudder to think of a relationship of mine being destroyed by financial conflict.[/quote]

    Yikes. I guess moms will use whatever tools they have in their arsenal to *set their kids straight,* eh? I cannot flipping imagine life with my mother if she was as financially controlling as she is AND an Fe-dom. At least with her, she just gives because she wants to. In the moment, she takes away to try to gain leverage, but she's never used it as emotional leverage.
    In the end, you're so much better off without what she's giving (monetarily speaking). Everything has a price, and apparently you're both paying the emotional cost.


    How is your relationship after all this, BlueFlame?
    Now? It's SO much better with more distance and no strings left to use to control me.
    Did you call momma yet?

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  9. #39
    Senior Member pyramid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFlame View Post
    Sigh...
    Well, it sounds like it was just one of those *I'm done helping you until you help yourself* moments. I don't know if it's just supposed to be some sort of tough love or she just ran out of steam, but it's sad either way.
    yeah, thankfully we have the past


    That's really interesting coming from the other side of the coin. When all of that happened, how did she seem to be feeling? Resigned, angry, detached, calm?
    all of the above. +in disbelief, smug

    I guess it really would be her feeling responsible for you, considering she's the ENFJ. Coming from my situation, I always felt responsible for my mother and her decisions and emotions, and she had no problem leaning on me from the time I was about 8, and she discovered the *wonders* of my Ni.
    I have a lot of friends with Ni that have parents like that. I have always noticed how responsible my mom feels for me...

    In 2008 I cut off contact with her for about 7 months for that exact reason. I just couldn't do it anymore. She would lean on me and come to me for advice and we would literally spend hours coming up with solutions and working through things, then, in the end, she would throw it all away and live in the destructive moment. And I think that's a sort of extreme example of what BC was talking about. There's nothing wrong with being what the very essence of an ENFP is, it's just frustrating for others to watch when it's in a negative light...especially when you're dealing with someone like an ENFJ. Not saying you're on the path of destruction or anything, but that could be how your mom sees it.
    ...it's how I know she's a good mom and why she has rejected our differences.

    Yikes. I guess moms will use whatever tools they have in their arsenal to *set their kids straight,* eh? I cannot flipping imagine life with my mother if she was as financially controlling as she is AND an Fe-dom. At least with her, she just gives because she wants to. In the moment, she takes away to try to gain leverage, but she's never used it as emotional leverage.
    In the end, you're so much better off without what she's giving (monetarily speaking). Everything has a price, and apparently you're both paying the emotional cost.

    Now? It's SO much better with more distance and no strings left to use to control me.
    Did you call momma yet?
    Not quite over all those emotional costs yet ... almost!
    She will likely notice talk of my job through facebook and call or text about it. she has limited technology ettiquette.

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